Auto making a remove-only stash tab a regular tab needs to be stopped

you are lucky enough to get those stash tabs for free. so stfu imho ;-)

~100$ for an empty stash tab seems a bit excessive indeed.

"

CanHasPants wrote:

I should add, I do not think it would be unfair if the rules for sharing bought tabs between leagues changed for future leagues. I do think there is something wrong with changing the rules post-hoc, for previous leagues.

A possibility (for future leagues) is to sell slightly cheaper tabs that are usable for that league only, or double the price for all current leagues. In this way, players are paying for exactly the number of tabs they receive, and then the only remove only tabs we'd need to worry about are the four starter tabs. At that point, because expectations have changed, it would not be unfair to implement an expiration timer to those future remove only tabs.

The important thing with this suggestion (assuming it does resolve the issues present with current tab behavior, and I think it is obvious that the "as is" have some serious long-term problems), is that we know what we're paying for up front and do not have to worry about the rules changing on us after we've already made decisions based upon those rules.

 Making a change like this now feels like GGG is pulling the rug out from under me. I've played for 20 months now and have 30 premium tabs and have played 3 four month leagues. Over this time that currently works out to 67 remove only tabs in standard. Long term re-playability is what PoE is all about (works for me) and key to that long term playing is the ability to save lots of gear. How GGG chooses to handle long term gear storage will be a key factor to whether I'm playing another 20 months and more or not.

 Placing an artificial time limit on RO tabs is wrong and would severely undermine the main reasons to play PoE. Re-playability and longevity. So if GGG were to make it so RO tabs in permanent leagues timed out and were automatically removed (and thus any gear in those tabs is permanently lost) that would be sending us the wrong signal indicating the grind time to accumulate gear is of no value to us (GGG) anymore and you should vendor off most of it now or lose it. That's hardly any way to treat the PoE loyalists.

I've wrote some feedback to support and suggested that all we need is a way to choose which RO tab gets activated, because (confirmed by support) right now you cant influence it. Also Gary said he will forward the feedback to the relevant person.

I think this is a fair solution for everybody. RO tabs will slowly be cleared out as is GGG's intention, but we get to choose which ones.

@Arrowneous:

All I mean is, "We never intended read-only tabs to be used as permanent, and so we're implementing changes to make them more temporary; however, we have thus far allowed them to be treated them as permanent tabs, and so any changes will not affect your existing tabs." sounds a lot more reasonable. I can work with that, as opposed to "You made decisions based upon the rules as established, but now we're changing the rules and you're going to pay the price."

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Lord_Kamster wrote:

This is a big issue to people with tons of stash tabs, they can't just buy 30 tabs as if it's nothing, not when GGG has been encouraging their use in this way for ages now. And not only that but I'll reiterate that the tab that becomes standard/premium is reported to be RANDOM.

It isn't random, if you have Tabs 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, swap around tabs 1 and 6 and they all turn in to "Remove-Only" tabs, then when you buy a new stash tab that #1 tab will be migrated and not tab #6 even though tab #6 is in the left most position in your stash.

Essentially, re-arranging the order of your tabs has no bearing on what tab is which in the games code, it's purely a cosmetic/ease-of-use change. People re-arrange their tabs differently to each other which is why it may seem like RNG/luck/random when comparing with other people which tab is migrated.

Being able to rename tabs just adds fuel to the confusion.

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Antigegner wrote:

you are lucky enough to get those stash tabs for free. so stfu imho ;-)

This has nothing to do with what I said. The point is that when I fill my stash, I want to buy new tabs to put NEW items into. I can no longer do that, due to the extreme cost. The only thing I can do now is sell stuff from existing tabs that I want to keep (yes, I only have stuff I want to keep in my tabs), which seems to go against the idea of buying new tabs in the first place, right?

"

CanHasPants wrote:

@Arrowneous:

All I mean is, "We never intended read-only tabs to be used as permanent, and so we're implementing changes to make them more temporary; however, we have thus far allowed them to be treated them as permanent tabs, and so any changes will not affect your existing tabs." sounds a lot more reasonable. I can work with that, as opposed to "You made decisions based upon the rules as established, but now we're changing the rules and you're going to pay the price."

Oh really? Then please explain this statement from Chris:

"Thanks for the mail!

The core problem here is how our stash code works. There's no way to choose which tab is upgraded, which causes a problem in some circumstances where users can receive an unlimited number of stash tabs (without having to do any races). The change to how the stash tab purchases work (where it increases your entitlement of real tabs, rather than forcibly generating a real one each time) was to fix that. We're not really concerned with people using remove-only tabs as long-term storage like they have been doing.

I'm not completely happy with the solution and want to find a better one.

Kind regards,
Chris"

▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬

I highlighted the sentence that is most important. Chris is directly stating in his email reply that it's ok for us to keep our remove-only (RO) tabs as long term storage. WTF double take GGG! Keeping our gear long term is great (please no "you have too much junk" type of replies. Maybe I have lot's of rare tabs for the "2x or 3x same name" chaos or regal recipe and need to keep these RO tabs). But now we can't do that and expand our storage space. GGG error-ed big time with this change.

So you see CanHasPants that GGG does validate our desire to keep RO stash long term (for example, same name chaos recipe requires saving lot's of rares. All these rare items from Ambush are now many Standard RO tabs). So your statement "We never intended read-only tabs to be used as permanent, and so we're implementing changes to make them more temporary" is wrong, or Chris made a huge error and mis-spoke in the email reply. The fact that before the change all was working as intended means that the race tab technical problem was such that GGG made the change to fix that (gave them a solution there) but in turn GGG failed to see they opened a new "Pandora's box" with the change and with it has now caused an even bigger problem.

Note: Chris' last line of his email is classic Chris. He has said that in answers to item progression and desync questions last year and many other questions. I'm sure he personally is not completely happy with the solution and want's to find a better one. The problem is GGG is trying to do too much with too few people because all these problems for which Chris "is not completely happy with the solution" never ever get really worked out and fixed. So PoE has a gazillion problems, GGG is adding more to a poorly running game engine that needs a serious overhaul, and as an indie company there are just too few human resources to solve everything. It's sad that PoE is this broken and all Chris can say is he's not happy and then go on to add new content and never look back at the inner mess of PoE problems and pretend that "it's not happening". (I can't buy any new stash tabs until this is fixed properly). Well, one day we'll hear that GGG is shutting down and then we all lose. So please GGG, find another way to fix race stash problems, reverse back to stash tabs added when we buy them, I'll buy more premium tabs on the next sale, GGG will get more funding, we keep getting new content, and all is normal again (well... as normal as a penal colony island filled with hideous creatures can be).

I parse that sentence completely differently.

You read it as "We will not change RO tabs from how they are now."
I read it as "We will not purposefully destroy RO tabs (unless we have to)."

Given that they've already made one change (new tabs convert RO to full tabs), I would wager that Chris implied the latter. Your entire position rests on your interpretation of Chris' words -- I recommend asking for clarification from the man himself.

"

pneuma wrote:

I parse that sentence completely differently.

You read it as "We will not change RO tabs from how they are now."
I read it as "We will not purposefully destroy RO tabs (unless we have to)."

Given that they've already made one change (new tabs convert RO to full tabs), I would wager that Chris implied the latter. Your entire position rests on your interpretation of Chris' words -- I recommend asking for clarification from the man himself.

Hmm... I guess i could be mis-interpreting Chris' comment. But if what you say is the real intent then:

A. Current method of new stash tab activation is destroying my RO tabs
B. Trying to keep a lot of rare gear for the same name chaos recipe is shot to hell.
C. If a full RO tabs worth of items is converted I end up with no additioanl storage space until I
    vendor off the items and thus GGG is indirectly forcing me to sell off items I'm choosing to save.
D. GGG intends for use to play PoE for years instead of a few months (20 months for me)
    and thus long term storage of item is highly desired.