Auto making a remove-only stash tab a regular tab needs to be stopped

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Splift wrote:

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Telzen wrote:

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Arrowneous wrote:

I hope we can get an official reply from GGG to this question/problem?

Hey GGG, please clarify this. thank you.

There is no problem. The tabs aren't meant to be used as permanent storage. Most companies would put a time limit on them, be grateful that GGG doesn't.

Well in my case, once this league ends, if I decided to play on standard (all my regular tabs are nearly full) and wanted more tabs I would have to buy 7 tab packs (42 tabs) just to clear my backlog from the leagues. That means I would have to buy 8 tab packs (48 tabs) just to get 6 more tabs to actually use.

Because of this I probably won't ever play standard (would just stop playing if it came to that) and if I did I would just have to scrape by with mules and push myself to clear space on the 16 tabs I have because buying tabs for standard makes no sense for me.

Bottom line is in some cases this will reduce revenue for GGG and possibly motivate people to stop playing (ones who want to play standard but can't because of remove only backlog).

You could just go through your items and get rid of all but the best. Work with the number of tabs you have, and if you need more then buy them, just like everyone else.

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CanHasPants wrote:

Edit: Also an expiration timer is a truly bad idea. Think it over a few minutes.

I guess I am biased because I have no special attachment to items that drop into a league I never play. In fact, I have no special attachment to items, period.
I don't see how it is unreasonable to only allow you to store 1 leagues worth of temporary tabs. I mean, if you still have shit in temporary tabs from the LAST 4 month league, are you really even going to notice if they are gone?

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Telzen wrote:

You could just go through your items and get rid of all but the best. Work with the number of tabs you have, and if you need more then buy them, just like everyone else.

Well first off, I know my case is not an extreme example (or anything even close). There are people who hoard much more than me of higher quality stuff who also have exclusively played 4 month leagues since they started (and hence have a huge backlog of remove only).

I will admit that alot of the stuff is junk, but even assuming I can get rid of half the stuff easily I will still have to either buy 4-5 tab packs, vendor lots of decent stuff, or spend weeks to do a mass xyz exodus of selling with all the headache involved just to get myself into standard.

Like I said its too much bullshit and a big disincentive. I agree that GGG is already extremely fair with the system and have no complaints or demands to them as far as what we deserve...... but the situation is what it is and this is my side to it.

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CliveHowlitzer wrote:

I guess I am biased because I have no special attachment to items that drop into a league I never play. In fact, I have no special attachment to items, period.
I don't see how it is unreasonable to only allow you to store 1 leagues worth of temporary tabs. I mean, if you still have shit in temporary tabs from the LAST 4 month league, are you really even going to notice if they are gone?

I agree with your point and that is why I exclusively play 4 month leagues for now. BUT if I ever did decide to migrate to standard, the reason would be because of that huge mass of items waiting that I could use to make tons of sweet, powerful chars I never had before. And once again, I know I am not some weird anomaly. Most of the people who play 4 month leagues have huge backlogs in perm leagues and would run into these problems if they ever decide to migrate.

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Lord_Kamster wrote:

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Hodari wrote:

Yours. You can easily get through all the base content of the game playing self-found. You can get at least to mid-level maps without much trouble just by trading for a few key items required for your build or to round out any missing stats on your gear. And that's without even having any particularly special amount of skill or huge amount of time spent playing either. Considering the first Atziri kill was done on a build without any particularly high gear requirements either, I think it's safe to say you can do any of the content in the game with at least relatively minimal amounts of trading being REQUIRED.

Get out of here with this nonsense. Everything but just about one prize piece I found and used to start the build has required trading on my characters. The game is not playable without it. ONE person doing Atziri self-found or with standard gear out of 50,000 players or however many play does not validate your point. There are hundreds of possible builds and for most of those, the fight isn't even possible with top-tier gear unless the build meets very specific requirements.

One player doing it DOES prove it is possible to do. There are other builds that can do it as well. And either way, it's largely irrelevant to my overall point. Get one fact through your skull here: Atziri is meant to be a challenge for even reasonably dedicated/hardcore players. It's not meant to be the standard for whether a character is viable or not. Whether you agree with that philosophy or not, that is the way the game seems to be designed right now. Again, I said you can get through the regular content of the game just fine without trading much, if at all. You can get through most lower level maps without anything special either.

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The game is not playable without it.

As for this, YOU get out of here with that nonsense. Because you know what? There is absolutely NOTHING in this game that you can get by trading that isn't possible to get without it. Sure, it will take longer and it won't be the most EFFICIENT way to get it, but that doesn't mean the game isn't playable at all.

And again, there is a HUGE difference between needing to occasionally trade for a few key items to make a build work and your claims of needing to play "an economy simulator". Economy simulator implies you are spending all of your time flipping items in order to generate wealth. There is no way that this is REQUIRED. Optimal, maybe. Required, no. Unless you are talking about a build which absolutely requires 50+ex uniques to work(in which case, YOU are the one choosing to play that build, so it still doesn't really count), you can acquire enough currency just by playing the game normally.

Even just doing vendor recipes from docks or city of sarn, you should be able to get an ex worth of currency in a few hours at most. There will almost always be people looking to trade their ex or chaos for fusings or other smaller currencies, so take a minute or two out of your normal playing every week or so to trade up. Finding someone who has a particular unique you need or even a mid-range endgame rare might take a little longer, but with some of the websites indexing the forums, not THAT much longer. And you won't have to do that very often either. At worst, you might have to dedicate one day to trading to get geared up enough for maps, then another day or two a few weeks later when you want to move up to higher level maps. So call it 3-4 days per league at most. More likely, you can work that in between map runs or during whatever other breaks you take. Pick a slot you need to upgrade, take a minute or two to look through the options and see who is online. Message them. Trade. Done. Go back to playing. Either way, this is nowhere CLOSE to what I would consider "economy simulator" playing.

tl,dr: Unless you are looking for the absolute top tier gear and trying to run the hardest possible content, you can easily acquire enough wealth with minimal trading. If you are looking for the absolute best, realize that it's meant to be something that only a small number of the most dedicated players will have. It will take a lot of time, but it is still POSSIBLE to get by normal gameplay plus a reasonable amount of trading even then. "Economy simulator" will allow you to shortcut that process and get it faster, but it is still YOUR choice to do that or not.

People deserve to know what they are paying for. It should be in the description if this is the route they're going to take. Announcing it on the forum isn't enough.

The thing that gets me is that the only people affected here are the paying customers, that is the ironic part. Nobody who doesn't buy tabs will care, it is only the people who do buy things that get affected. That is why I don't get the reasoning. These are people that are already supporting the game, and have a much higher chance of doing so in the future compared to those who don't.

I would never want a remove-only tab before a stash tab. If I have the money, I'm buying them, regardless. That is the only factor. The remove only tabs won't stop me.

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BoltThrower87 wrote:

People deserve to know what they are paying for. It should be in the description if this is the route they're going to take. Announcing it on the forum doesn't cut it. And if I'm being honest, I won't be buying any until the description is changed.

Agreed. I think they have the right to do something about people trying to use remove-only tabs as free storage and if this is how they want to do it, it's fine with me. But at the very least, they need to make it clear to anyone buying them that this is the case.

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BoltThrower87 wrote:

I don't feel like arguing over tabs being P2W. It is beating a dead horse, and I could care less. But if you are going to say that saving time or gaining efficiency isn't P2W at some level, then you should also be able to explain why an EXP boost would not be P2W in PoE. It only saves you time/efficiency.

You can do everything without it (and the same goes for even buying the effect of an orb, like the regrets.. anyone can farm them in enough time, it is just less efficient, going by the line of reasoning I've seen defending tabs). Like I said, I don't care. I have no problems with the tabs being MTXs, but at the same time I can admit that they are at some level P2W.

I think the key here is that most people don't object so much to the idea that "people can buy something to save them time" itself. The problem is that once the company starts selling things like xp boosters or actual usable items, there is a huge incentive for them to adjust the game balance based around those facts. This in turn means that anyone NOT buying xp boosters will take significantly longer than they "should" to level and anyone not buying items will have much worse drop rates(if they can obtain comparable items at all). THAT is what people object to.

Stash tabs are about the only thing that gives any in-game advantage and even then, the game is at least marginally playable just with the 4 default tabs. I would argue that compared to most similar games, you actually have a relatively large amount of storage just from those 4. Buying 1 or 2 extra tab bundles will probably be enough for most people and even then, the cost is pretty minimal and far less than the cost of buying a normal game.

Now that I think of it, here's a forced consequence of these changes:

I have a few RO tabs that are half empty. I planned to empty them, just to make things more tidy and organized. But now I wont, or I'll leave just one item in them. This way when (if) I'll buy more tabs in the future, I wont end up with one full of swag, but with an empty one.

At the end of these leagues I've emptied as much tabs as possible, again to make things more tidy. But at the end of the next leagues I wont - I'll leave one item in each tab, to abuse this new system, in case I decide to buy more tabs. Which is probably a counter effect of what GGG intended.

(provided ofc that you can choose which RO tabs get turned, and its not just random)

PS;
I dont own any shops or do trading, I'm just a hoarder, so dont yell at me bro

@morbo: I don't understand what you're saying. I have no idea how leaving one item in a RO tab is "abusing the system."

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CliveHowlitzer wrote:

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CanHasPants wrote:

Edit: Also an expiration timer is a truly bad idea. Think it over a few minutes.

I guess I am biased because I have no special attachment to items that drop into a league I never play. In fact, I have no special attachment to items, period.
I don't see how it is unreasonable to only allow you to store 1 leagues worth of temporary tabs. I mean, if you still have shit in temporary tabs from the LAST 4 month league, are you really even going to notice if they are gone?

I'll admit a small amount of bias as well--I cannot log in (no PC to do so on) so if GGG suddenly decided to go this route, I'd be S.O.L. I have no idea what is in my tabs at the moment, and I could potentially lose some of the only good items I own.

But beyond that, it's really about fairness. A timer would force you to buy new tabs every new league, if you wished to retain your progress from that league. That is, stash tabs in Standard would be an inch even closer to pay to win. As it is, we're (some of us) discouraged from buying new tabs because of the backlog, but our items are still there should we decide to have fun with those sweet, sweet legacies. Add a timer and, eventually, you will run out of room, and new tabs are no longer an option but a requirement, lest we lose what we thought was already ours.

The problem here, at it's core, is a little over a year's worth of GGG setting and reinforcing the expectations about stash tab behavior between leagues. A change to that now would very well undermine a year's worth of forward planning (if there was any) for players who have been playing four month leagues to collect for the standard/HC league. It would add a tax of sorts, to participating in those expectations, and if you cannot afford it then that year's worth of effort goes down the drain.

It could very well be that GGG made a mistake in allowing my ~20 bought tabs to become up to 20 new, free, read only tabs after each league migration. But nonetheless those are the expectations GGG set a year ago; they need to be careful how they go about changing those expectations, if that is their goal, because there will be players who feel punished for "following the rules."

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CanHasPants wrote:

@morbo: I don't understand what you're saying. I have no idea how leaving one item in a RO tab is "abusing the system."

My bad. It's not really "abusing", more like circumventing.

When the league is about to end, you clean up yur stash, but then leave one item in every (empty) tab. Those are then transferred in the parent league. When you buy new tabs, you then "activate" the ones that have just one item in them, effectively gaining empty tabs. That is, if its possible to control which RO gets activated??

My stance is: the gameplay is designed so that your playtime (aka swag) gets funneled into the parent league, so it's only fair that we get RO tabs that are indefinitely available, since PoE is also not P2W and it's not nice to threaten players with "expiration dates" and similar non-ethical stuff that has been mentioned in this thread :)

I hope that this is as far as they push this "convenience of not needing to manually transfer items when you buy new tabs" ;)

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CanHasPants wrote:

I'll admit a small amount of bias as well--I cannot log in (no PC to do so on) so if GGG suddenly decided to go this route, I'd be S.O.L. I have no idea what is in my tabs at the moment, and I could potentially lose some of the only good items I own.

But beyond that, it's really about fairness. A timer would force you to buy new tabs every new league, if you wished to retain your progress from that league. That is, stash tabs in Standard would be an inch even closer to pay to win. As it is, we're (some of us) discouraged from buying new tabs because of the backlog, but our items are still there should we decide to have fun with those sweet, sweet legacies. Add a timer and, eventually, you will run out of room, and new tabs are no longer an option but a requirement, lest we lose what we thought was already ours.

The problem here, at it's core, is a little over a year's worth of GGG setting and reinforcing the expectations about stash tab behavior between leagues. A change to that now would very well undermine a year's worth of forward planning (if there was any) for players who have been playing four month leagues to collect for the standard/HC league. It would add a tax of sorts, to participating in those expectations, and if you cannot afford it then that year's worth of effort goes down the drain.

It could very well be that GGG made a mistake in allowing my ~20 bought tabs to become up to 20 new, free, read only tabs after each league migration. But nonetheless those are the expectations GGG set a year ago; they need to be careful how they go about changing those expectations, if that is their goal, because there will be players who feel punished for "following the rules."

 Finally some one else is seeing a big problem with GGG deciding that the 4 month league stash tabs can't be kept as remove-only in Standard or HC forever. I don't know what the maximum tab limit is (hopefully it's an unsigned 16 bit number which = 65536) but there is a performance limit well below that number so GGG may have set the limit at 255. Again, GGG would need to post and clarify this for us.

 So right now I have another 30 remove-only tabs in my Standard League stash from Ambush league. That brings my total to 67 remove-only tabs. So right now if I were to buy new stash tabs I would need to purchase 67 more to get all of them converted to normal tabs and then after that any additional ones I purchase would be new and empty. That is completely absurd. GGG with this recent change, is stating that when (I may never buy any more ever because of this change) I buy a new 6 pack bundle, that six of my remove-only tabs will be converted to 6 normal use tabs. Which 6? Out of my 67 remove-only tabs which 6 are going to be made into normal? Do I get to pick the 6 I want (such as orb, gem, and ring tabs)? Of course not! GGG is going to RNG pick a block of 6 to convert (most likely gear tabs) and I won't like the 6 that are randomly picked!

This change has ruined the purchase of new tabs as new and empty additional storage space.

 But it gets worse. When GGG adds more recipes the remove-only tabs of extra gems I have may suddenly be needed to use in the new recipes. If I didn't keep them long term as remove-only tabs I'd not have them and thus all my hard work to amass them is wasted.

 GGG wants us to be playing PoE for years instead of months. We all get that and I have no problem as a PoE loyalist. But if I am to be desiring to play PoE for years (I'm at 20 months and counting), then by god I need to be able to keep any and all items I've acquired. If I don't like that many total tabs then it should be up to me to decide to buy new tabs that are 100 % empty and then decide which items in my 67 remove-only tabs to move over and which to vendor until that remove-only tab is empty and eliminated. Not GGG, me! We have to put up with a lot of game flaws (and we accept and understand that in order to ride the PoE merry-go-round) but forcing us to dump our gear just because of this change is wrong!