Sheer Frustration: 27 5L's later, no 6L...... Yes, Twenty-fucking-Seven 5L's.

.

"

Worldbreaker wrote:

While fuses may be "bad RNG" they aren't forcing you to use them. They are the high risk/high reward option

Huh? Links make or brake builds. They are not optional, but integral part of builds. The only difference is their required number per build: some require only 4, most require 5, a small percent require 6 (and a small percent require only 3).

If you don't want certain number of links to be forced on you, you must pick builds on how many links they require and not what you'd want to play. This is as limiting & restricting as it gets.

"

morbo wrote:

most require 5

Nope.

More importantly: irrelevant. This is an ARPG; who gives a fuck about what's required? Only a small percentage of us are trying to prove how badass we are by beating the game with nothing but blue items. We're just trying to min/max things... and that is not something to be ashamed of. So it doesn't matter whether 5L or 6Ls are required or not; we're going to try to get them anyway, because they're powerful.

So since we're going to try to get them anyway, it would be nice if the systems given to us to achieve such a goal were not so frustrating. I'm not advocating instant gratification here, just a system which doesn't leave a sour taste in the mouth. In fact, the longer one goes before achieving that BiS perfection, the more important it is that the systems one goes through to attain such a goal are palatable... after all, you'll be a visitor there for quite a while.

edit: Stop TL;DRing me, morbo.

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

"

morbo wrote:

most require 5

Nope.

If you like to crawl at a snail pace through maps or stand behind your guild mates, who do all the DPS work, then indeed nope -_-

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

Orb of Fusing doesn't really fail simply because it's a full-reroll orb.

Imo, this, or the inability to prevent a full reroll, is exactly why it fails. With a Chaos Orb, a full reroll makes sense. With a Fusing, there comes a point where one doesn't want a full-reroll. Instead, one wants to keep his/her current link state but also wants to try to improve upon it. Imo, this is where the problems start.

It isn't even the full-reroll that is the issue. It is the unavoidable application of the full-reroll. What I mean by that is: it isn't a problem to simply roll a 2L from a 5L; it is a problem to always apply the 2L result to the 5L item, affectively downgrading it. The roll is fine, but always applying it is not. Imo, an addition that allows one to say "if Fusing result < current links, do not apply result" would be a big quality-of-life improvement. "Nothing happens" would be a glorious thing at this point; you either Fuse or nothing happens.

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

I'm not advocating instant gratification here, just a system which doesn't leave a sour taste in the mouth. In fact, the longer one goes before achieving that BiS perfection, the more important it is that the systems one goes through to attain such a goal are palatable...

I agree. It should not be about making a 5L or 6L easier to achieve; it should be able making the journey to get there less frustrating, more tolerable, and easier to continue on.

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

And I read that as, "I simply don't understand the difference between an engaging RNG system and a poorly designed one." Keep in mind that I consider any particular probability assignment for the "best" result as fair, even if that chance is only 0.0001%; it's the relationship between various results that matters.

You have two engaged RNG methods of obtaining the same result. (5/6L)

Let's just trash fuses and jewellers as a whole, rely on drops that don't affect your stash or buying them through trade (that drop for others). Then you will see how much they are needed to complete the circle.

I use them, I know I don't have to and don't expect a result.

To the other guy, I am on board with them not breaking previous links, if anything it will improve the value of 5L's in the 4 month leagues. People won't feel the need to sell the 5L in fear of breaking it and would keep dumping them into the same item for a 6.

"

Perfect_Black wrote:

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

Orb of Fusing doesn't really fail simply because it's a full-reroll orb.

Imo, this, or the inability to prevent a full reroll, is exactly why it fails. With a Chaos Orb, a full reroll makes sense. With a Fusing, there comes a point where one doesn't want a full-reroll. Instead, one wants to keep his/her current link state but also wants to try to improve upon it. Imo, this is where the problems start.

It isn't even the full-reroll that is the issue. It is the unavoidable application of the full-reroll. What I mean by that is: it isn't a problem to simply roll a 2L from a 5L; it is a problem to always apply the 2L result to the 5L item, affectively downgrading it. The roll is fine, but always applying it is not. Imo, an addition that allows one to say "if Fusing result < current links, do not apply result" would be a big quality-of-life improvement. "Nothing happens" would be a glorious thing at this point; you either Fuse or nothing happens.

You're not making sense.

Are you trying to say that what you want is like a Regal or an Exalt, but for links instead of rare affixes? In such a case, that's not so much saying that Fusings are doing a bad job, so much as saying they are doing the wrong job.

Which kind of ties into my next point...

"

Worldbreaker wrote:

Let's just trash fuses and jewellers as a whole, rely on drops that don't affect your stash or buying them through trade (that drop for others). Then you will see how much they are needed to complete the circle.

That's the thing. It's not a good system, it's a bad system. But it exists anyway, because the design of the socketing system overall forces it.

I am not trying to say that, given the socketing system they designed, there is a better solution sitting around for the taking, and — by implication — that they have made a mistake in not doing so. I'm saying the way Fusings work is an inevitable consequence of the socketing system they designed, and as such a rather stern condemnation of such a system. A lot more than Fusings would have to be reworked to make it into a system which doesn't aggravate players.

In all honesty, it's probably too late to do anything about it. Although we'll probably have to live with it, I still believe I would be remiss to pretend that everything's okay. For an idea for a design which I believe would fix, or at least come closer to fixing, the problem, see this Suggestions thread.

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

You're not making sense.

Are you trying to say that what you want is like a Regal or an Exalt, but for links instead of rare affixes?...

No, it is more like I am saying what I want is like an Eternal Orb for sockets/links. Put more simply, I am hoping for a way to get "nothing happens" upon Jeweler's/Fusing use in place of downgrades. Ideally, I would like a way to lock-in the socket/link state of an item through the next Jeweler's/Fusing use. If the next socket/link roll is a downgrade, then it is not applied; if it's an upgrade or equivalent, then it is applied. Because downgrade rolls are so frequent, "nothing happens" could become a common occurrence upon Jeweler's/Fusing use. This addition would provide insurance against downgrades (at a cost, surely). Also, this addition could open the door to eliminating the mutually exclusive nature of Jeweler's/Fusing use. For example:

: Start with a 4S 3L
: Use enough Fusings to get a 4L
: Now, do X to lock-in the item's socket/link state and apply a Jeweler's (you cannot lose sockets/links as long as you do X)
: Repeat this process until you gain a 5th socket
: You should now have a 5S 4L
: Now, do X to lock-in the item's socket/link state and apply a Fusing
: Repeat this process until you gain a 4th link (which makes a 5L)
: Now, switch back to Jeweler's use. Do X to lock-in the items socket/link state and apply Jeweler's
: Repeat this process until you gain a 6S
: Now, switch back to Fusing use. Do X to lock-in the items socket/link state and apply a Fusing
: Repeat this process until you gain a 5th link (which makes a 6L)

-All the while, one has the option to not do X and accept a complete socket/link re-roll.
-The underlying RNG of Jeweler's/Fusings would not have to change.
-Players could use Jeweler's/Fusings on gear they are wearing because they could do X to protect their current sockets/links.

To thou who hath cursed the Exiles of Wraeclast with this terrible and/or unfinished socketing/linking system, I hope you spill your coffee or tea on your favorite shirt.

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

In all honesty, it's probably too late to do anything about it.

I totally disagree.

So what you're telling me is you want to go from...
A1. throwing Fusings at an item in your stash, getting all kinds of wacky random results until you hit 5L/6L
A2. if you hit 5L you sell it, which is just fine because it gives you more fuel for later
...to...
B1. throwing Fusings at an item not necessarily in your stash, getting absolutely zero results — as in, the orb vaporizes and literally nothing changed — until you hit 5L/6L
B2. if you hit 5L you don't have to sell it, but you don't you're being foolish because you can still get a 6L off of a 4L (or worse) so why would you not sell a valuable 5L and replace it with a less-linked piece to work on?

I mean, as far as I'm concerned, your "solution" changes nothing which actually matters. If anything, it turns Jewelers and Fusing use into more of a tedium, because instead of simply having nothing relevant happening, you have literally nothing happening, which is even more of a surreal self-flagellation. Given that wince-worthy drawback and no benefit which actually matters, I'll pass.

Well, there are good ideas about fusing out there...

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

For example, Chaos Orb. This is another orb which applies a full-reroll, highly random result. However, it's not broken, because there's no line of strict superiority. You can get good items out of Chaos Orbs which upgrade your character in ways you hadn't anticipated, and two different items made from Chaos Orbs can be in a relationship where neither is strictly superior to the other, with pros and cons for each.

The elemental resistance power creep fucked the whole reroll system for rares, isn't it?
There is an evident min maxing strategy so I don't think it applies anymore...Not many results are really good.

"

Morbo wrote:

Huh? Links make or brake builds. They are not optional, but integral part of builds. The only difference is their required number per build: some require only 4, most require 5, a small percent require 6 (and a small percent require only 3).

If you don't want certain number of links to be forced on you, you must pick builds on how many links they require and not what you'd want to play. This is as limiting & restricting as it gets.

Some people say is needed and others say no to that. IN THE SAME THREAD. It's beautiful.
I guess is a perception problem...some people out there can live without it and try to force their world view to others, and others need it and they rather have it easily. You'll keep me entertained a lot...
Getting an upgrade shouldn't be neither easy nor hard; it's a game based around rerolls. It wouldn't hurt a little the posibility of actually rounding up a build, without perfecting it.

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

In all honesty, it's probably too late to do anything about it. Although we'll probably have to live with it, I still believe I would be remiss to pretend that everything's okay. For an idea for a design which I believe would fix, or at least come closer to fixing, the problem, see this Suggestions thread.

A man with little faith...act IV should be a good point for big changes. And if the Vaal orb was added in march, I'm not seeing a lot of trouble for some sweet revamping.