POE: The Best of Games and the Worst of Games

@hilbert

All of your ideas just hurt another area of the game. Game design in much harder and complex than you seem to think.

"

TheAnuhart wrote:

RNG is fine, Chris is totally correct that the game would not be fun without it.

These games are all about RNG.

The problem, is that PoE is designed so one can almost completely bypass RNG at every implementation. At the very least, minimise it to a fraction.

This doesn't result in a game where the RNG works, this results in a game where the RNG is frowned upon.

THIS RESULTS IN A LESS FUN GAME THAN ONE WITHOUT RNG, which Chris wants to avoid.

One can choose to remove/minimise the RNG through the designed means, or be slave to it and covet what is seen to be ones right, because so many others just cut out the RNG.

Bad design.

Guess what? RNG is not fun. Overwhelming Majority of people disagree with you.

http://www.whatdoestheinternetthink.net/rng

"

Chris wrote:

Thanks for the great post and discussion. This kind of constructive thread is very helpful.

I'd like to present my opinion on this. It doesn't necessarily represent any changes we're going to make.

If we had no currency items, our item system would be similar to older action RPGs like Diablo 2. You'd have to rely on finding rares as you play. Some of those rares would (by chance) be appropriate for your character, and others could be traded. We have a similar drop rate of rare items.

The addition of currency items like Orbs of Alchemy and Exalted Orbs allow players to modify their items in a more directed way. The extent to which this game system is important depends on how often they drop.

If alchs and exalts drop every minute then players would have easy access to masses of rares, all with six mods. This would create an extremely crafting-heavy game and content would have to progress steeply in difficulty to compensate. Rares would quickly "converge" so that everyone had top-5% ones.

On the other hand, if the currency items dropped extremely rarely, then players would almost never get the chance to create a rare or to add mods to one. They'd be relying *almost* entirely on item drops, so it'd be far harder for items to converge on the best rares.

This continuum, controlled by currency drop rates, dictates both the difficulty of the game, but also the amount of expected item manipulation that players need to engage in to gear up for Merciless.

Players play Path of Exile more efficiently than we imagined when we initially set the currency drop rates (which have remained mostly unchanged since then). Players are concentrating their item rerolls into fewer and better items than we intended. While this level of end-game item manipulation is often described as really fun, it has the problems that you've discussed in this thread. One way to address this would be to reduce the drop rate of higher currency and also make content easier. I am very aware that if we did this, people would complain that we nerfed currency drops and dumbed down the game difficulty. We'll find a better solution!

One thing I learned from launching Path of Exile is how difficult it is to modify a game once it's live and people are relying on enjoying their current characters. As much as I'd love to make sweeping changes to try to improve how fun and satisfying the item system is, we have to be mindful to do it in the correct way so that the silent majority aren't upset at the changes.

Chris,

Thank you for responding to the thread I created. I know it is not a simple issue you face.

I totally get that increased success of crafting is directly related to the difficulty that you have to scale the game to.

I also believe though that this effect is not linear throughout the game play experience either and the "flat" effects of the orbs creates a situation where they are horded for later use.

However, I think there are solutions within the system itself that does not have to create the difficulty situation so much as you described especially when one considers that there are two distinct types of crafting in the game.

Alchemy and exalted orbs create items.

But fusings, chromatics and jewelers modify an existing item to be usable for a given build and position within the game. Isn't this an area where you can adjust the effects of the orbs to provide more efficiency at lower levels without creating the great gear imbalance you mention above?

As an example, say I am playing cruel and I find Aurseize gloves. I am currently using rare gloves that are four linked, let's say RGGB. The Aurseize gloves I found have 1 socket. So now to use them I have to burn jeweler's until I get 4 sockets (not always so simple), then burning possibly a significant number of chromatics until I get the color combination I need, and then burning what can be a very significant number of fusings to get it 4 linked (14% chance per fusing I guess).

In economy terms, that can be several to many chaos orbs worth of currency just to get then usable, and they are not really an item that is going to help me in merciless or maps anyway so it has a very finite life cycle anyway. So many people will decide to just sell it and horde more orbs for later, or try to find gloves that remove one or more of the degrees of freedom from the equation so I can take the risk to "craft" the item.

Wouldn't it make sense to make it dramatically easier to craft into a usable configuration items like these during the leveling phase by increasing the chances of getting the right number of sockets and links, so I can go out an play the game? Not saying guarantee it, but make it so you use the currency to get it in the right configuration because it is better value than just trying to horde and buy it.

Not saying to make 5 or 6 link items easier to craft as they do become dramatically more powerful, but ease the strain of the RNG on transitional items. Would seem to consume the currency even if the drop rates were buffed, people would be out in the world playing more and trying to progress, and would not have the effect on end game and game difficulty balancing that just making orbs more common would have,

"

cutt wrote:

"

Randomzx wrote:

"

cutt wrote:

This game is not Dark Souls, it never was and it never will be. You knew this when you downloaded the game.

This is your main problem. This game is not something you were expecting it to be and is not something you were searching for, if you make these kind of complaints.

This is a loot game. Loot has to be random in order to be fun and repayable. The better loot you have the harder it will be to find an upgrade. This is common logic.

Would you replay Dark Souls for hundreds of hours like this game, or D2, or D3? The answer is obvious.

Yes I would, by your logic people would have stopped playing soccer or chess after a few days when it is invented.

Dark Souls is a single player, skill dependent game. Soccer and chess are competitive games. Don't mix it. And no, you would't replay Dark Souls for hundred of hours like D2 or PoE. Stop lying. You know why? Because it doesn't have RNG, because it's not a loot driven game. Because once you completed the hardest difficulty of the game - it's finished. In ARPG games you play not to beat the game, but to acquire the best possible loot and build the most powerful character. It order for these games to be repayable - they need to be randomized.

And if Chris Wilson, the main designer of the game can't convince you in it, then you are truly playing the wrong game.

Darksouls is very much a multiplayer game,in fact if your internet connected it's unavoidable to play online without unplugging.

Darksouls is also a VERY competitive PvP game.

Nobody is lieing to you

It is very much loot driven and the RNG is very much alive and well in Darksouls,it's just not applied to every gameplay system.

The game is finished for you maybe,you don't seem to be competitive PvP or interested in different builds.

People play ARPG games how they see fit,you don't hold the key to how ARPG should be played.

No in order for these games to be replayable or even playable at all they need to be fun.

Anyway, gl with that RNG-talk, guys. It's nice to read some constructive feeds from most of you ppl and its pleasant to see that you actually do care about this game.

But yellow-framed posts tell another story: its banging head against the wall.

"

Morgoth2356 wrote:

"

Coal48 wrote:

There shouldn't be "gear checks"

Ofc there should be gear checks, what type of games do you think you're playing ?

"

End game doesn't mean anything to me, once I finish merciless, I consider that I have finished the game, again, it's because I don't like farming/grinding, by the very end of merciless, you should have reached max level

What type of games do you think you're playing ?

Some type of nasty MMO hybrid.

"

PigBoyneo wrote:

…
There should be no bad at all, there should only be; buyer and seller works out price for a trade, buyer pays currency for item, seller accepts currency for item. The fact that the buyer can refuse a player a trade because of what currency he has got is a game mechanics fault for allowing that to happen in the first place.

Can’t see how it is a “game mechanics” problem based on the examples you’ve provided. Whenever people are involved there is always good and bad. I’m sure if I were to try and buy a pint of milk in the UK with US currency I would be refused.

"

PigBoyneo wrote:

So there no botters/RMTers in game atm?

That is not what I said. :)

"

PigBoyneo wrote:

ROFL, so instead of copper, silver, gold and platinum we have alts, alchs, chaos and ex. Yes, diverse indeed.......

Yes we do and yes it is. Enjoy. :)

"

oBLACKIECHANo wrote:

"

Bozon wrote:

"

oBLACKIECHANo wrote:

Maybe you should learn what an ARPG is?

Isn't that Action - A_C_T_I_O_N - Role Playing Game?

And speaking of craft - what part of mindless, boring, dull and desperate farm for RNG's sake would you consider as an action in path of Exile? Marveil runs maybe? Piety runs? Ledge? Docks?
Is it game at all?

Spoiler

Sry to interfere this sweet talk of yours.

Tell me kid, what did you do in D2? Or even D1? What about TL2? D3? Or any other ARPG for that matter? Oh wait, you did boss runs or farmed certain zones to get good items. What are you doing in PoE? Oh yes, farming bosses or end game maps for items. Where is the difference again? Oh wait, nope, that is just the fucking genre as a whole and PoE isn't doing anything worse than past games in the genre, in fact it only does better. And people whining about it should try something else.

Yes sir,I farmed my arse off in those games,and you know what,It mostly paid off in buckets.You can farm your arse off in POE and .... well just and....

"

Temper wrote:

"

oBLACKIECHANo wrote:

Tell me kid, what did you do in D2? Or even D1? What about TL2? D3? Or any other ARPG for that matter? Oh wait, you did boss runs or farmed certain zones to get good items. What are you doing in PoE? Oh yes, farming bosses or end game maps for items. Where is the difference again? Oh wait, nope, that is just the fucking genre as a whole and PoE isn't doing anything worse than past games in the genre, in fact it only does better. And people whining about it should try something else.

Yes sir,I farmed my arse off in those games,and you know what,It mostly paid off in buckets.You can farm your arse off in POE and .... well just and....

You can easily farm bosses like peity or merveil and make tons of currency and find decent gear.

Thankyou johnnysd for your post and thankyou for your reply to johnnysds' wonderfull feedback post Chris.


Please don't take the opinion that some of the community is hating on you or the guys and gals at GGG.

You've stated multiple times that you all grew up playing these types of games and wanted share the style in which you played them.

The insight has been interesting to say the least,but I still prefer the old school hack and slash to pry the loot from the enmeies cold lifeless hands than to trade it up for the win.