...::: SFL Poll results and conclusions :::...

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kaross579 wrote:

I bet this would be SUPER fun and would be an great way to both gauge demand and test for a long term self-found league.

I don't doubt something like this would actually be super fun, I don't doubt at all....


However you must understand that more drops you give "fun" would last shorter. Whole thing will become boring and players will get fed up soon. Original PoE philosophy is "give little, let them suffer" that's why game can last very long. It takes months of gameplay to get all things you really want, if ever. Besides what would happen with other leagues if people discover you can get all the goodies fast in SFL?

No if anything SFL progress rate and difficulty should remain au pair with standard league or tougher, never easier experience.

Something simple like, double (some, like fuse, chrome ...) orb drop rates and ban trading. That way you can partially compensate no trading with somewhat better crafting. Most of other things should remain the same.

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Thorien_Kell wrote:

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gonzaw wrote:

Your sample is too small.

Also, it is conditioned by the way the poll was made. People participate in the poll by going into a thread specifically titled "Self Found League Poll", and voting in it. That already biases the results, the only way to get unbiased results is to randomly choose your sample.

Sample too small to do what exactly? My sample is 129 people. Try to imagine group of 127 people, it's a nice little bunch of PoE lovers and forum dwellers which expressed their opinion. 72% of them were in favor of SFL. Now you can stretch, explain, rationalize and tilt those numbers as you wish, but I still say it's a hell of a number.

Your sample is too small for your results to have any indication about the whole community whatsoever. I.e, to have any meaning at all.

If I ask 3 people if they want SFL, and all 3 respond "Yes", then by my findings 100% of the community wants SFL. That's false.
127 falls in a similar place. Well, perhaps, I don't know the total amount of PoE players, but I assume they are a lot.

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I never said my poll was absolute. But I say it's damn indicative.

It is indicative that there exists lots of people that want SFL. But not indicative that the community as a whole wants it.

If you base "being indicative" on flat numbers, then yes you are right (perhaps, again 127 it's not that much).

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I say that it gives me the right to say that they are "lot of fukin people" that would definitely love to play well made SFL. You can say what you like but that "insignificant percentage" sometime SFL haters would pull does not work anymore. People are interested in this. Why is it so hard for you to accept this simple fact? Even if 72% is not absolute, even if it's 40 or 30, is not that good enough? I say it is.

And don't try to mention those "vast majority" of players that don't come to forums and don't know what SFL is, I say that LOT of those (if explained) would say, "what the hell, why not?"

I'm not stating anything against or in favor of SFL (I'd personally play it if it was released, depending on how it was implemented). I'm just stating facts.

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gonzaw wrote:

It is indicative that there exists lots of people that want SFL.

Call me crazy but I thought that was the whole point.

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Thorien_Kell wrote:

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kaross579 wrote:

I bet this would be SUPER fun and would be an great way to both gauge demand and test for a long term self-found league.

I don't doubt something like this would actually be super fun, I don't doubt at all....


However you must understand that more drops you give "fun" would last shorter. Whole thing will become boring and players will get fed up soon. Original PoE philosophy is "give little, let them suffer" that's why game can last very long. It takes months of gameplay to get all things you really want, if ever. Besides what would happen with other leagues if people discover you can get all the goodies fast in SFL?

No if anything SFL progress rate and difficulty should remain au pair with standard league or tougher, never easier experience.

Something simple like, double (some, like fuse, chrome ...) orb drop rates and ban trading. That way you can partially compensate no trading with somewhat better crafting. Most of other things should remain the same.

See, the thing though is, I think that trading is a much bigger factor than 2x over all difficulties accounts for.

I've played maybe 1000 hours total since OB. In all that time, I've found 2 Exalts, 1 Divine, and maybe 10 GCP total. But with very, very casual trading I was able to get probably 10 exalts and 100 GCP in the same amount of time - and this is WITHOUT using poe.xyz to sell. I can only imagine that I could have easily doubled that if I actively used poe.xyz to sell the decent rares I found instead of stashing them for alts.

If you completely disable trading, and make the recipe for Exalts and such fairly expensive, then you're still looking at a 1000 hours of play time becoming 30-40 Exalts and 5-10 Eternals. That's enough that you can craft one great item, maybe, but certainly not a whole gear set.

This is the idea of SFL - for people to be able to get to the top end of the gear curve by pure play time, rather than trading. 1000 hours is about how much a player who is dedicated, but has a full time job, can realistically play in the span of a 4 month league. I think that seems about right to me.

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iamstryker wrote:

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gonzaw wrote:

It is indicative that there exists lots of people that want SFL.

Call me crazy but I thought that was the whole point.

That's usually not the point of polls. If that was the point, he wouldn't have counted the people that voted "Don't Care" or "Against it".

Honestly for anyone who is on the forums a decent amount of time it was obvious that there are a lot of people interested in a SFL.

The poll was unnecessary just like the old vote threads for looting options. It doesn't matter what the ratio is of people for or against it, as long as there are enough players that want it then that's what matters.

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Your sample is too small for your results to have any indication about the whole community whatsoever. I.e, to have any meaning at all.

So, when are one of you master statisticians going to do a revised poll? I'm anxious to start poking holes in it.

Of course there are "a lot of people that want it". The problem is deciding if these same people would be happy with what they got. GGG thinks you wont. I think you wont. You'll be back asking for more changes, and more consideration... better drops and more orbs.

Or you'll get bored with it and quit.

But it's not in the best interest of the game to give players everything they clamor for.

In PoE you dont need to change this for everybody, they can just run an sfl league if they want.

I dont care either way, Id probably roll a char on an sfl league (sfl hardcore, whoa).

I like the social aspect of trading quite a bit though.

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bluefalcon74 wrote:

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Your sample is too small for your results to have any indication about the whole community whatsoever. I.e, to have any meaning at all.

So, when are one of you master statisticians going to do a revised poll? I'm anxious to start poking holes in it.

I'm not going to do anything.

Upon more examination, the size sample isn't "that bad", at least if you don't want almost exact results and more of an estimate. But the sampling process is not correct so you can't do any analysis on it basically (statistic laws apply when the sampling is completely random).

Also yeah, I do know very little about this (studied it years ago and never touched it again), so even if I do it it might not be accurate either, but I can recognize when a poll is not being done entirely correctly.

Maybe someone with more knowledge and experience can prove me wrong though.

Anyways, sorry if my posts come too negative or as trying to "shit" on the idea something. I just want to make sure nobody thinks stuff like "Everybody wants a SFL!" or stuff like that which isn't really true, or isn't shown with the poll from this thread. I.e, don't get false hopes or worse misinformation.

Like I said before, maybe GGG can implement a way to make better statistics. They are looking for feedback, but yes maybe some of these threads, or even the forum is not really a good way to get it, at least when talking about numbers (e.g considering how much people really want change X, so they decide to implement it or not). Something like that could be very good, specially for the small stuff, like for example balance changes, etc.
They could use them to gauge what the community thinks, and get better feedback, and maybe most importantly to "organize" their communications better (using those results to determine what feedback they can respond to, which feedback is important or which feedback people care about, etc).