Why I'm quitting PoE and no longer recommending it to friends

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StrayCat wrote:

With regards to Xaxyx I'm a little unsure how to respond...most of your complaint about what I said seems to have to do with the balance of power between five links and six links, something I didn't talk about at all. Having never had a six link item I have no real opinion on its power level.

And here I thought this thread was about upgrading from 5L to 6L. What are we here to talk about, then?

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I easily got through the game without ever even a five link so it certainly isn't necessary...other than that I don't really have anything to say. If advancement in that realm is too jagged that's more of an issue of details than general design philosophy.

I vehemently disagree. This discussion does in fact speak directly toward design philosophy. Whether advancement in any particular area of the game is steady/gradual or jagged/plateaued is a philosophical, conceptual characteristic. The *mechanics* behind the incline of a gradual change, or of jumping from one plateau to the next, are where the details are found.

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However, I would point out that one of my problems with the orb of fusing/six links situation in the first place is that it brings chaotic advancement to the part of character development that people generally do not want to be chaotic (skills). This isn't as straightforward as the orb of leveling since PoE entangles the usually separate skill and item systems together with the socket/gem system, but I think it is one of the reasons why people get more frustrated about this than about not finding a rare weapon with utterly perfect mods.

Skills already have a random and/or chaotic element insofar as that they aren't even *available for use* unless you happen upon the appropriate gem. Setting aside gems that can be acquired via quest reward, there are certain abilities, and certain enhancements of abilities, that characters *cannot use at all* until the correct gem is located. And aside from various IIQ mechanics (this includes player count), there's no way to improve your odds of ever acquiring such gems through your own means.

So yes, the philosophy of plateaued advancement does in fact already exist in this game as pertains to skills. It just so happens that generally speaking, the mechanics of that acquisition method aren't particularly difficult to overcome. Gem drop rate seems sufficiently common for even the highest end of gems that players eventually seem to end up stumbling upon the ones that they seek. Perhaps this rate could be tweaked, one way or the other, for some gems. But that's a mechanics discussion.

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I am also not using chaotic interchangeably with gradual, although this point too seems to go back to talking about the power level of six linked items. I've had characters that wore utter trash for different gear pieces for an eternity while other slots got inundated with good rares. In the 2 week hard core race my unfortunate duelist used an axe he found in the normal pyramid until merciless. There is nothing gradual about that.

M-hm. And did your character suddenly and tremendously leap forward in power when he changed that weapon out? Was it transformational, a staggering, obvious upgrade to his efficacy? Or was it just another +3 to whatever, the same as upgrading a ring, a pair of boots, or what-have-you?

Whereas: when you managed to get and make use of your first 4L item, was that just as meaningless and insignificant as finding your latest pair of boots? Or was this in fact a huge milestone, a major step forward for your character's progress? Do you not see the distinction?

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As for the orb of ring wearing, I don't know if you even read anything I wrote at all...it makes no sense from either angle I addressed. First, and most simply, it stifles chaotic advancement by making it much harder to advance in equipment period as well as limiting the gear options presented to a player...from that perspective it runs at cross purposes to itself, which is always a bad design idea.

My assertion is that making 6L hard to achieve limits options presented to a player, running at cross purposes to itself, *in the same fashion* as the aforementioned (and admittedly ridiculous) Orb of Ring Wearing.

Here's another fun, absurd example: the Orb of Rarity. Players can't wear rare items until they get this splendidly awesome orb. They're stuck using regular, "blue" items. They can still advance chaotically. They can still defeat every challenge in the game. They can still acquire every mod that exists on equipment. They just can't stack them with rare items. Not until that one in a bazillion chance lines up and they get this orb. Wouldn't this be "fun", too?

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The second thing I wrote about is that player's perception of character advancement and what they feel is appropriate plays a large role in whether a model is fun or not. The orb of leveling brings chaotic advancement to a system that players generally want to be orderly, and they want it orderly because it makes sense for skill progression to be orderly and because it is tied in with character identity, not just that one system needs to be orderly and the other chaotic. You can't just shove in any chaotic advancement item into the game and have people like it just because item advancement is built around chaos; not having a ring slot until you find a special orb makes no sense and undermines the illusion that the player is engaged in. It creates a restriction so odd and transparent that the player's ability to engage in the game is threatened.

It's great that you feel qualified to speak for players and what they generally want. But let's set aside for a moment the invalidity of argumentum ad populum, engaging in illusions, and the supposed logic of restricting 6L yet illogic of restricting rings. The argument being addressed here is simple: 6L is TOO inconsistent, TOO chaotic, in its method of acquisition, proportionally to the reward it grants. Large rewards, significant upgrades to characters, should be available for acquisition in a gradual, reliable fashion. Small upgrades should be subject to the whims of chaos and randomness. THAT is the design philosophy of PoE as best I can perceive (herein I do not deign to speak for others). And that is the philosophy to which 6L stands in exception.

For those of you starving for an alternative progression that still retains the excitement of inconsistent reward, here's a "random" thought:

Fragment of Fusing: Combine in a stack to form an Orb of Fusing of different power levels.

10 Frags = Orb of Fusing (2 links)
50 Frags = Orb of Fusing (3 links)
...
300 Frags = Orb of Fusing (6 links)

Frags drop randomly, at the same rate as orbs currently do (and replacing them). Collect frags, stack them, convert them into the appropriately sized Orb, presto, x-link item. The more frags you gather, the better your linkage.

Too easy? Then you can only apply a 3-link orb to a 2-link item; direct upgrades only. And so forth.

Too dull? When you add a frag to the stack, the stack grows by a semi-random amount, perhaps 1-3, perhaps occasionally you get lucky and get +10 or +50.

And so forth. At least in this system, you WILL eventually get your 6L, but it will take some longer than others, depending on luck. And you can still trade for some or all.

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Xaxyx wrote:

The argument being addressed here is simple: 6L is TOO inconsistent, TOO chaotic, in its method of acquisition, proportionally to the reward it grants. Large rewards, significant upgrades to characters, should be available for acquisition in a gradual, reliable fashion.

I think you are probably glorifying 6L too much or, "Your putting the pussy on a pedestal".

At the end game when you might get 6L, the advantages you gain will be large, but relatively minor compared to your nicely crafted 4L/5L gear. Probability is NOT chaotic, it is just either probable or improbable. I find probability to be very reliable.
6L cant be compared to these "Orbs of (X)", these orbs you keep mentioning dont even really need a response. Rings (or ring equivalent) are absolutely essential to your gear, they are the earliest source of resistances and I COULD NOT complete the content without them.
Essentially the fragments you suggest are the same as a recipe, which I am in favour of, 300 of course is way too low (unless these fragments of fusing were rarer than fusing orbs, but I think we would end up with a similar thread like this one if we did that)

I would prefer to keep it simple, adding another orb when we could just use a recipe would be the same thing, just a lot simpler.

Alot of good thoughts here. The biggest thing I think is that "illusion of power" that GGG wants players to have. Currently there is SO much RnG to gear. Right now the "ultimate stat" on an item is the 6L which has multiple forms of complexity to it (ie color, links and number of sockets) The biggest issue here is the power difference between the items AND the lack of "visible" progression towards a goal.

I agree that items should not ONLY get better and they should be able to go backwards as well. But at the same time, players need to SEE progression or even just have that "illusion of power" as mentioned before. I think the "frag" idea is pretty close to what I recommended prior.

Make a new item available later game. A new orb called "exaulted jeweler's orb" or w.e you want to call it. This orb costs 50 regular jewelers orbs BUT it "averages" out the odds of a 4, 5 and 6L making that item have increased odds. It there is a 20% chance that with 50 orbs you would roll a 6L, make the exaulted version have a "slightly" higher chance (rewarding those who save) to say 22% to roll a 6. If there was a 25% chance to get a 5 socket, up that to 28%, 30% for 4socket? up that to 35%.

NOW you have a 78% chance to get a 4 socket or higher... THIS is something worth doing since its less of a "my 5 socket will turn into a 1" and more of a "high chance to roll high sockets"

This is something that would allow players to take a 4 or 5 socket item and not feel bad about rolling on it since chance are it would stay the same. It just gives a little "downside" protection with the "illusion" of power since it has roughly the same statistical chances anyways of getting the 6L...

Thus, you are not really increasing the #of 6 sockets on the market, but letting players SEE progression. YES they might spend 1000 orbs and not get it, YES it will piss ppl off, but its less of a "start from square 1" type of feeling and something I would feel good about. Heck even keep the % chance it rolls a 6 or 5 the same, but even just letting it not be SO random and more of an illusion of progression.

Doing something and failing 50 times is worse then trying once and failing once. This is how the current system registers in peoples minds. Limit the "failed" attempts, and you create that illusion without even changing the game.

Same % chance as before, more illusion of control, better overall feeling for the user. DOESNT take away from people who want to "play the lotto". Doesnt add more 6L to the community, doesnt make it ANY easier. Just relieves players who hate rolling something 500 times and not getting what they want... Now they roll 10 times and have the same average % cahnce, but maybe they fail 10 times... Still its better then failing 500....

i like the idea of progression.
Ill speak as one of those people who hates back ward progression. generally speaking people in my position don't have the time or patience to survive losing large amounts of progress.

It doesn't matter what mechanic it is , be it the sweeping change of a certain stat that makes all the gear you farmed to the point worthless ( ala diablo 3s ais nerf ... so many people quit that day )
or a gambling mechanic that is directly connected to the power of your characters main weapon that removes all progress made from previous gambles if it fails

or in this case spending 500 fusings and ending up with a shitty 3 linked gear instead of 6 linked when you started with 5 linked .

It is that sense that the game is deliberately wasting your time that kills it. notice I said sense , regardless of their intentions of the game if i spend a months worth of hard earned currency and end up worse than when i started

Then first of all it makes that currency worthless in my eyes , 500 fusing and I lost power? well then ill probably never use fusing again and probably just exchange for gcps and sit on them.

but secondly this type of mechanic commits the ultimate sin by make the player aware that they are wasting time.

and once a player gets that idea in their head . " this game just wasted a month of my life for nothing" , then their perception of the game is permanently damaged.

Just like the op of this thread. He went from a loyal supporter recommending the game to friends and playing the end game to hating the game and spreading his hate for the game to others like an infection.

I wont lie . I almost quit the game when I read his post and I am having major second thoughts about using fusings

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Metronomy wrote:

I think you are probably glorifying 6L too much or, "Your [sic] putting the pussy on a pedestal".

Would you tell the OP the same thing, who *quit the game* over this issue? Would you use those same words, even?

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At the end game when you might get 6L, the advantages you gain will be large, but relatively minor compared to your nicely crafted 4L/5L gear. Probability is NOT chaotic, it is just either probable or improbable. I find probability to be very reliable.

I'm not sure which of those statements is more inherently contradictory. 6L is large, except that it's small. Probability is either probable or improbable. Yet it's very reliable, and not chaotic, even when it's improbable. Is that the gist? Would you mind providing us with your definition of "chaotic"? Pedestal optional.

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6L cant be compared to these "Orbs of (X)", these orbs you keep mentioning dont even really need a response. Rings (or ring equivalent) are absolutely essential to your gear, they are the earliest source of resistances and I COULD NOT complete the content without them.

Would anyone from the pro-random-6L crowd care to differ with this assertion? Are rings *required* to complete the current content?

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Essentially the fragments you suggest are the same as a recipe, which I am in favour of, 300 of course is way too low (unless these fragments of fusing were rarer than fusing orbs, but I think we would end up with a similar thread like this one if we did that)

I would prefer to keep it simple, adding another orb when we could just use a recipe would be the same thing, just a lot simpler.

Mechanics, vs. philosophy, yes.

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Saltychipmunk wrote:

i like the idea of progression.
Ill speak as one of those people who hates back ward progression. generally speaking people in my position don't have the time or patience to survive losing large amounts of progress.

It doesn't matter what mechanic it is , be it the sweeping change of a certain stat that makes all the gear you farmed to the point worthless ( ala diablo 3s ais nerf ... so many people quit that day )
or a gambling mechanic that is directly connected to the power of your characters main weapon that removes all progress made from previous gambles if it fails

or in this case spending 500 fusings and ending up with a shitty 3 linked gear instead of 6 linked when you started with 5 linked .

It is that sense that the game is deliberately wasting your time that kills it. notice I said sense , regardless of their intentions of the game if i spend a months worth of hard earned currency and end up worse than when i started

Then first of all it makes that currency worthless in my eyes , 500 fusing and I lost power? well then ill probably never use fusing again and probably just exchange for gcps and sit on them.

but secondly this type of mechanic commits the ultimate sin by make the player aware that they are wasting time.

and once a player gets that idea in their head . " this game just wasted a month of my life for nothing" , then their perception of the game is permanently damaged.

Just like the op of this thread. He went from a loyal supporter recommending the game to friends and playing the end game to hating the game and spreading his hate for the game to others like an infection.

I wont lie . I almost quit the game when I read his post and I am having major second thoughts about using fusings

I think this is some really good incite. Alot of players may be risk adverse. "spending 500 fusings and ending up with a shitty 3 linked gear instead of 6 linked when you started with 5 linked ." This is something that WILL leave a really bad taste in players mouths so to speak. That type of thing is what causes people to quit.

"this type of mechanic commits the ultimate sin by make the player aware that they are wasting time." Hits it right on the head. You dont want players realizing this... Hence why if there is a system that keeps the same %s but gets rid of the "waste" feeling. That would be something GGG should adapt to.

I believe my solution really addresses this issue.

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Xaxyx wrote:

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Metronomy wrote:

I think you are probably glorifying 6L too much or, "Your [sic] putting the pussy on a pedestal".

Would you tell the OP the same thing, who *quit the game* over this issue? Would you use those same words, even?

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At the end game when you might get 6L, the advantages you gain will be large, but relatively minor compared to your nicely crafted 4L/5L gear. Probability is NOT chaotic, it is just either probable or improbable. I find probability to be very reliable.

I'm not sure which of those statements is more inherently contradictory. 6L is large, except that it's small. Probability is either probable or improbable. Yet it's very reliable, and not chaotic, even when it's improbable. Is that the gist? Would you mind providing us with your definition of "chaotic"? Pedestal optional

OK, firstly you probably had to be there in that movie, but I would tell him that yes =P.
I used the word 'relatively' which clearly explains how something can be big, yet small compared to something else. E.G The earth is huge, but tiny compared to the sun.

Im pretty lazy, but I will take the first definition from google for chaos

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1. Complete disorder and confusion
2. Behavior so unpredictable as to appear random, owing to great sensitivity to small changes in conditions.

So your chance to get 6L is predictable, and I cant see how anyone calling it be disorderly or confusing...my point was mainly that you cant use chaotic to describe something with a distinct probability, because it is NOT unpredictable.

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Metronomy wrote:

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Xaxyx wrote:

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Metronomy wrote:

I think you are probably glorifying 6L too much or, "Your [sic] putting the pussy on a pedestal".

Would you tell the OP the same thing, who *quit the game* over this issue? Would you use those same words, even?

"

At the end game when you might get 6L, the advantages you gain will be large, but relatively minor compared to your nicely crafted 4L/5L gear. Probability is NOT chaotic, it is just either probable or improbable. I find probability to be very reliable.

I'm not sure which of those statements is more inherently contradictory. 6L is large, except that it's small. Probability is either probable or improbable. Yet it's very reliable, and not chaotic, even when it's improbable. Is that the gist? Would you mind providing us with your definition of "chaotic"? Pedestal optional

OK, firstly you probably had to be there in that movie, but I would tell him that yes =P.
I used the word 'relatively' which clearly explains how something can be big, yet small compared to something else. E.G The earth is huge, but tiny compared to the sun.

Im pretty lazy, but I will take the first definition from google for chaos

"

1. Complete disorder and confusion
2. Behavior so unpredictable as to appear random, owing to great sensitivity to small changes in conditions.

So your chance to get 6L is predictable, and I cant see how anyone calling it be disorderly or confusing...my point was mainly that you cant use chaotic to describe something with a distinct probability, because it is NOT unpredictable.

are we really going to devolve this topic into a silly argument over semantics ?

normally I would encourage such banter if it were truely constructive to the topic but right now the massive wall text posted by you and Xaxyx over the definition of 'chaotic' and 'probability' is seriously derailing the thread

while the term chaotic may not be the best to describe what the current 6l situation is , the message is pretty obvious . the probability of success is far to freaking low and the punishment for failure is to high for the current system to be justifiable .

like it or not being able to 6 link gear is a logical progression of a characters development in the same way hitting land mark passive skills like blood magic or iron reflexes can define a characters build.

having such a core part of the game ie (the skills system) tied to something so unrealistically rare and variable is detrimental to the core experience.

the system needs to change

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Saltychipmunk wrote:

are we really going to devolve this topic into a silly argument over semantics ?

No, we're not.