Why I'm quitting PoE and no longer recommending it to friends

With regards to the orb of leveling issue...
I don't like the current orb of fusing situation, so it's a bit odd for me to be tackling this issue, but it doesn't seem like the same thing to me. First is because games like this have always relied on two parallel systems of character progression: random and and not random. Leveling/skill progression is obviously not random, and since you always gain experience as you play you never feel your time has been wasted (hence the vital importance of not having an easily reached level cap, like certain other games). Treasure is random; you don't get increases at a constant rate, you might not get increases at all, and because of the different properties it's ambiguous whether one item is an actual upgrade to another item. This jagged system creates excitement over what you might find at any time while playing, with punctuations at moments that are supposed to be exciting, namely being victorious in important fights. These two systems working at the same time form a balance of order and chaos in character progression, providing two sources of fun at once. The orb of leveling would eliminate the balance and make all character progression, at least up to the level ceiling, based on chaos, leaving players vulnerable to the experience of loss when they find nothing while playing (indeed, leaving players open to the experience of loss is one large reason I do not like the current fusing orb system).

Secondly, the orb of leveling is wrong on the level of the way people experience these kind of games. First, and most simply, building character skills is logical in the sense that people in real life build skills over time with use. Putting bizarre and unrealistic limits on progression, like needing an orb, is illogical and undermines the illusion of the game. Furthermore with regards to skills, people have a much more personal stake in skill progression since they define the character in a personality and dare I say role playing sense in the way that items do not. Ask a player what character they are using right now and see if they mention items and not their skills. It's always a bad idea to take away choice or the illusion of choice when it comes to skills since it undermines a player's personal investment in the character. Really, my biggest problem with the socket system is in this; The sockets define your ability to level and customize active skills, making it frustrating to have your choice stifled by bad luck on impersonal items. Items do not share any of this personal attachment to people; they are disposable, and not getting exactly what you want in items does not alter your view of your character or you illusion of choice. Item's are also better suited to being the chaotic element than skills on a positive instead of a negative direction: items are a fulfillment of the fantasy idea of treasure finding, which is intimately tied to notions of uncovering valuable, but largely unknown objects.

So very long story somewhat short, the orb of leveling would break the balance between orderly and chaotic advancement these games thrive on, and being a chaotic treasure piece is ill suited to being paired up with the skill system, which people desire order in. Really, in addition to leaving players vulnerable to the experience of loss I think the orb of fusing is problematic because it is chaotic and somewhat tied to the skill system as well, since despite being on an item sockets are how active skills are handled. It isn't quite as problematic as the orb of leveling would be I think, since while they do technically hamper skill progression I don't think support gems are nearly as defining as active skills or the ability to progress, making it not as egregious a threat to the game's illusion. With the exceptions of totem and multi-projectiles, support gems largely don't influence your experience of a skill, and feel much more distant from character progression.

You're using the term "chaotic" interchangeably with "gradual". Equipment (and sometimes, skill) progression in RPGs such as these is randomness-dependent, true. But that dependency is staggered, incremental. You upgrade your boots; later, you upgrade your gloves. Or, at the most, you collect gear combinations in your stash that, once you acquire some key piece, allows you to swap out several pieces at once. But you acquired those pieces gradually; you didn't suddenly, with a single drop, utterly transform your character's prowess.

Socket counts are a significant jump in power. There *is* a significant, important distinction between the efficacy of a 5L skill and a 6. That's why it's so highly valued; that's why it's so highly sought. It's not fluff, luxury, or any other sort of dismissible boon to a character's development. It's an important step, a transformational step. A milestone.

Yet this important, distinguished and distinctive milestone in a character's career is achieved not by gradual growth, not by careful, measured steps toward a distant goal, but rather by floundering -- CHAOTICALLY -- in the desperate, dire hopes that THIS time, THIS run will be the one, magical run where one's character will leap, instantaneously, from tier X to tier Y. How does that at all match the model of character growth that you depict? How does that at all align with the underlying mechanic of gradual, methodical progression?

It doesn't. It is instead the very opposite. It is a wall, a barrier, a threshold that must be circumvented not by work, not by strategy, not by effort, not by desire, not by scheming or planning or plotting, but instead waiting for that one terribly unlikely moment when the planets align and one's character is ALLOWED to progress. It could happen immediately. It could take months. It might never even happen at all.

Thus I submit: the 5L -> 6L path ALSO conflicts with the balance between order and chaos that you depict, just as much so the fabled Orb of Leveling. Or, if that particular brand of vodka displeases your palette, try another: the Orb of Ring Wearing, which disallows your character from wearing rings, ever, until you happen to stumble upon that particular orb, which can only be found in Merciless difficulty. Herein, this orb confers precisely the same dynamic as the 6L wall:

- It's just equipment-based
- It doesn't prevent you from completing any content (rings are luxury items!)
- You can still use all of your other gadgets and gizmos

Etc, etc. Wouldn't that be "fun"? To blunder through the game, totally unable to wear rings, until such time as you happen to get lucky enough to acquire some absurdly rare orb? Or perhaps you'll never find such an orb, even after months, even YEARS of grinding, and therefore can never wear rings. But hey, cheer up. That guy over there found his within his first five minutes in Merciless! Isn't that great?

"

Xaxyx wrote:

There *is* a significant, important distinction between the efficacy of a 5L skill and a 6. That's why it's so highly valued; that's why it's so highly sought. It's not fluff, luxury, or any other sort of dismissible boon to a character's development.

If this were true there would be no one arguing against it. The empirical truth is that they're completely overkill. Not one build has a hard requirement for them, and all the current content is balanced to 4Ls.

By and large the first thing people do with a 5L is put `increased quantity` on their 4L.

Xaxyx...

I like you...

Thats exactly the point... Its not gradual, its not planned, its not even something you put X amount of time and and yet, it makes a HUGE difference. The REAL effects of the 6L disparity will be seen and felt in PvP. A character with a 6L is going to shine versus a character with a 5L... It gets even worse when you step down to a 4L and I would wager to say that the power difference between a 6L and a 5L or even 4L is probably the equiv of what 7 levels? 10 levels? You tell me. Point being its a HUGE step, not just a casual "luxury" item.

Should there be SOME RNG involved? After all, that is the nature of these types of games... So YES YES YES!!!! But should it be the all or nothing effect it is now? NO NO NO!!!!

The ONLY thing I can think of is people that justify the 6L are either dilusional that its going to be a small minority of players and they think they will have that power and thus have an advantage over others... well I hate to burst that bubble but it wont happen, they WILL be somewhat common after time. Afterall, its a factor of time/luck and nothing else...

So ask yourself this question...

When you reach end game in Open Beta, and your running maps like mad and have a few awesome pieces... You have 5L items right now and havnt seen a good drop in a month... How long do you think you will play when lucky players who get 6L items stomp on you in pvp and the orbs you are confidently defending here keep rolling 1,2,3 slots for you so you cant get that extra UMF in PvP? 2 weeks? 3? What if you never get it?

THAT system will frustrate people. That feels limiting.. You DO NOT WANT limiting, you want empowering! Empowering is placing the "power" in the players hands giving them options. Rely on luck, or grind till your eyes bleed. Either way, the PLAYER HAS A CHOICE! Right now, They have NO choice and rely only on luck...

One last note here: Is a 6L a luxury item? If the game were solely PVE, and there was no heavy advantage in end game situations in having a 6L. I would say yes it is a luxury item and people can QQ about getting it. The problem is 1) It WILL GREATLY affect PVP. 2) It is a MAJOR jump in power and NOT a trivial one. 3) it is NOT super super rare... A noob lvl 60 who just reached end game could stumble across one and become a "god" in game versus a player who grinds to get decent gear 3-4 slots and good stats, could and potentially would get dominated by the luck factor in PVP... THUS it is not enough to say "luxury" item and dismiss it.

If you dont want a 6L, fine, dont try to get one. I AM NOT saying hand them out. I AM saying give the player the power to farm one if they desire with enough time and effort... Without that, whats the point of farming if its totally up to RNG to get good gear?

"

clinx1337 wrote:

I AM saying give the player the power to farm one if they desire with enough time and effort... Without that, whats the point of farming if its totally up to RNG to get good gear?

I dunno, ask people who 'farmed' Diablo 2. I think there a few around here.

Italicised part of your post to hypothetically ask: what's 'enough'?

And maybe being 'good' at PvP is a luxury too.

Still, a good point. If anything would lead people to hack/dupe/use sites like d2jsp, it'd be the need to be on equal ground in PvP.

I Don't think that justifies making a 6L any easier to get, or removing it from its current status as as RNG miracle.

But who knows, maybe GGG will make an end-game quest where you can get a rare 6L of your choice.

Highly unlikely, but it's fun to imagine what would happen.

I think StrayCar and Xyxyxyx has hit the nail on the head.
Character progression includes passive and active skills (including supports as they change/increase the utility of active skills).

People will quit if they can no longer progress their character each time they log on (and see they are making progress). The SEE is very important. That's why you have an XP bar at the bottom of the screen.

Therefore, having RnG dictate the number of linked sockets takes away the feeling of progression for half of your character. You must rely on pure RnG to increase the utility/power of your active skills. Which means you cannot see progression (because there probably wasn't any progression), and therefore people will stop logging on.

Hell, a novel idea would be have the weapon you are using gain XP as your character does! When it makes it to lvl 20 (like skill gems do), make it guarenteed to get 6L (assuming you have 6S in it). This would bring the active skill component in line with the progression over time that character level is. Which people enjoy doing.

The economy and RnG should be about getting better loot that SYNERGISES with the skills and setups you have created for your characters. RnG should not LIMIT utility/power of active skills by not allowing you to have the supports linked that you want. RnG should AUGMENT/SYNERGISE your active/passive skill set by dropping magics/rares that you can look at and go, ooo i like that.... that would work well with my....

"

Charan wrote:

"

clinx1337 wrote:

I AM saying give the player the power to farm one if they desire with enough time and effort... Without that, whats the point of farming if its totally up to RNG to get good gear?

I dunno, ask people who 'farmed' Diablo 2. I think there a few around here.

Italicised part of your post to hypothetically ask: what's 'enough'?

And maybe being 'good' at PvP is a luxury too.

Still, a good point. If anything would lead people to hack/dupe/use sites like d2jsp, it'd be the need to be on equal ground in PvP.

I Don't think that justifies making a 6L any easier to get, or removing it from its current status as as RNG miracle.

But who knows, maybe GGG will make an end-game quest where you can get a rare 6L of your choice.

Highly unlikely, but it's fun to imagine what would happen.

I was one of those D2 players, the difference is there were loot tables and so you had a goal of farming for X item from X run and you knew you would get roughly X xp. Yes you would log in and make a Baal run or w.e the difference is that you always felt closer to your goal, you had a chance at items. With the 6L game, its not quite the same since its totally random from pretty much anywhere. Also orbs have the chance (high one at that ) to send your character backwards! With D2 you never went backwards, you might stay in the same place roughly for a while, but never backwards...

I would also wager that the item difference between some of the unique versus rares is not as much as 6L and 5L difference. Especially in PVP...

The random loot drop component is still in the game today so that makes no real difference here. There is still random loot to "farm" to get the uniques or rares you want. The 6L desire is just an added complexity and an added component of RNG. All I am saying is that if you make the player powerless.... Its nto a fun "system" to be in...

All loot games have the RNG of the loot dropping and thats not the issue here, its a matter of once the RNG drops your loot, NOW you have to get a 6L. Or if your lucky a 6L will drop for you and then you have to build the stats you want...

Fair call with the loot tables. So is this less about the idea RNG itself and more about the 'visibility' of its range? Do we say it's no longer entirely RNG if there is such visibility?

I suppose so. That certainty. Linked, if you will, with Chris' very loose suggestion of a recipe of XXXX fusings guaranteeing a 6L.

So the very base of the issue, if we can finally approach it, is the idea of power and control. I think what GGG need to do here is what they do best: the illusion of power and control. That notion of exploiting so often discussed, where a player might feel like they're 'exploiting' but are in fact only pushing GGG's private envelope of what is acceptable.

I don't think this thread will provide the definitive answer if that's true.

"

Charan wrote:

Fair call with the loot tables. So is this less about the idea RNG itself and more about the 'visibility' of its range? Do we say it's no longer entirely RNG if there is such visibility?

I suppose so. That certainty. Linked, if you will, with Chris' very loose suggestion of a recipe of XXXX fusings guaranteeing a 6L.

So the very base of the issue, if we can finally approach it, is the idea of power and control. I think what GGG need to do here is what they do best: the illusion of power and control. That notion of exploiting so often discussed, where a player might feel like they're 'exploiting' but are in fact only pushing GGG's private envelope of what is acceptable.

I don't think this thread will provide the definitive answer if that's true.

Good point on creating the illusion of control over obtaining 6L. I would be interested in seeing an idea that could demonstrate the illusion of control over pure RnG 6L. I can't think of one myself. To my mind (correct me if I'm wrong), but a table showing the chances of getting a drop doing a particular run is still RnG. Doing that run will not show me getting closer to my goal.

Just one thing I realised as well. Getting the Active skill setup you want is actually determined by multiple RnG elements. 1st you must get the number of sockets RnG. 2nd you must get the correct coloured sockets RnG. 3rd you must fuse all sockets into a contiguous set RnG. Having 3 layers of RnG directly to your characters' active skills seems over the top. And nowehere in there can you try and get progression illusion.

Currently I look at loot and go, oooo good sockets. and try and roll something OK for the magic stats. Or I go, oooo great magic stats, and I pretty much give up on trying to get a good socket setup on it. It is ultimately unprogressable being tied to pure RnG. If I could level up the item by using it, which will eventually grant me the holy grail, I would use that item for sure so that it will slowly grant me access to the active skill setup I want.

I'd like a dev comment on the complexity of the overlapping RnG structure on the Active skill set of characters, and how they envisioned it to work vs how it is working. (besides the balanced to 4L comment, balancing can change. Why aren't there areas balanced to 6L? then people with 4L or 5L can attempt them for massive challenge :) )

With regards to Xaxyx I'm a little unsure how to respond...most of your complaint about what I said seems to have to do with the balance of power between five links and six links, something I didn't talk about at all. Having never had a six link item I have no real opinion on its power level. I easily got through the game without ever even a five link so it certainly isn't necessary...other than that I don't really have anything to say. If advancement in that realm is too jagged that's more of an issue of details than general design philosophy. However, I would point out that one of my problems with the orb of fusing/six links situation in the first place is that it brings chaotic advancement to the part of character development that people generally do not want to be chaotic (skills). This isn't as straightforward as the orb of leveling since PoE entangles the usually separate skill and item systems together with the socket/gem system, but I think it is one of the reasons why people get more frustrated about this than about not finding a rare weapon with utterly perfect mods.

I am also not using chaotic interchangeably with gradual, although this point too seems to go back to talking about the power level of six linked items. I've had characters that wore utter trash for different gear pieces for an eternity while other slots got inundated with good rares. In the 2 week hard core race my unfortunate duelist used an axe he found in the normal pyramid until merciless. There is nothing gradual about that.

As for the orb of ring wearing, I don't know if you even read anything I wrote at all...it makes no sense from either angle I addressed. First, and most simply, it stifles chaotic advancement by making it much harder to advance in equipment period as well as limiting the gear options presented to a player...from that perspective it runs at cross purposes to itself, which is always a bad design idea. The second thing I wrote about is that player's perception of character advancement and what they feel is appropriate plays a large role in whether a model is fun or not. The orb of leveling brings chaotic advancement to a system that players generally want to be orderly, and they want it orderly because it makes sense for skill progression to be orderly and because it is tied in with character identity, not just that one system needs to be orderly and the other chaotic. You can't just shove in any chaotic advancement item into the game and have people like it just because item advancement is built around chaos; not having a ring slot until you find a special orb makes no sense and undermines the illusion that the player is engaged in. It creates a restriction so odd and transparent that the player's ability to engage in the game is threatened.