Remove MF completely from game

I just don't understand why people get so upset over the fact that, somewhere, someone else is getting further ahead of you in a game. Who cares??? You should base feedback on game mechanics, whats fun, whats not, stuff like that. Is your next suggestion to implement a play time restriction? You can only play 3 hours a day and then you get kicked off, so the people that can't play as much aren't left behind? No that's absurd, just as what you're suggesting is absurd.

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gmar84 wrote:

I just don't understand why people get so upset over the fact that, somewhere, someone else is getting further ahead of you in a game. Who cares???

This mostly affects solo play. People want to play one character to farm gear and maps for that character, not be strongarmed into running an "MF character" to do the same.

Given that you've misunderstood this premise, the rest of your argument is off target.

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pneuma wrote:

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gmar84 wrote:

I just don't understand why people get so upset over the fact that, somewhere, someone else is getting further ahead of you in a game. Who cares???

This mostly affects solo play. People want to play one character to farm gear and maps for that character, not be strongarmed into running an "MF character" to do the same.

Given that you've misunderstood this premise, the rest of your argument is off target.

When you are playing a game like this, it's all about the loot. The entire game is centered around acquiring said loot. No one is forcing you to do anything. Yes, it's more efficient, but if you don't want to be efficient, then dont. It might take you longer, but it's still better than the alternative. Never being able to increase your loot find chance, in a game, where it's about finding loot? That would make for a very boring RPG.

Then the complaint would be "It takes too long to find good items, implement a way to increase chances of finding items so I can find better items faster".

I like the idea of making a MF character that I use to gear out my other characters. I should be able to do that if I want. But you can still choose to play the other way, where you want each character to gear themselves.

MF = I can make a MF char and use him to gear my others. You can choose not to do that if you want.
No MF = I can't do that. I am forced to play your way.

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pneuma wrote:

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gmar84 wrote:

I just don't understand why people get so upset over the fact that, somewhere, someone else is getting further ahead of you in a game. Who cares???

This mostly affects solo play. People want to play one character to farm gear and maps for that character, not be strongarmed into running an "MF character" to do the same.

I don't think that's entirely accurate.

The way I see it, there are about three essential motivations to play a particular character, corresponding to each of the player psychographics:

• Badassness (Timmy): Your character completes mighty challenges and vanquishes dangerous foes.
• Self-expression (Johnny): Your character stays true to a certain ideal, whether that's pure melee with your toon or saying "all gems are viable" in your attempt to make Chance to Flee work for you. Johnnies also very much enjoy build intricacy.
• Farming (Spike): Your character takes in several metric tons of loot per map, and clears maps quickly. (Racing alternative: Maxing XP/minute, even if that means skipping content such as unique boss battles.)

The problem is in allowing overlap. Although players usually have one psychographic which is most important to them, most have at least two which are important to them, and some seek all three. I think there is good balance for badassness and self-expression (for example, facetanking Temple Piety as melee is hard, but actually doable), but farming is an entirely different story; the best farming builds are amazingly cowardly (low badassness) and very formulaic (usually RF + totems).

So let's say you're me, a Johnny/Spike. My Spike side is calling for me to make efficient farming builds; my Johnny side is calling for melee. The way the game is set up currently, I'm simply bound to be unhappy, either playing a purely Spike build or a purely Johnny build. Pneuma, this is what leads to the common practice which you're talking about; I wouldn't have that problem if I was a pure Spike (although pure Spikes (just like pure Timmies and pure Johnnies) are actually a rare breed), it's my dual psychographic which is causing me to split my time between multiple characters. Similarly, Timmy/Spikes are upset that, in order to maximize their farming, they have to gimp their character's ability to farm the most difficult zones/maps.

When you get to the bottom of this, the real psychological root of the QQ, it's about wanting the Spike builds to have more overlap with both Timmy and Johnny builds. For some, it's more of a lashing out in frustration, and the suggestions aren't that great because they effectively destroy Spike; the thread title is actually a horrible idea, and even I'm guilty of irrationally hating on MF in the past, a move I'd likely regret. But I believe that making MF affixes build-dependent would be the answer. For Timmy/Spikes, you could balance the numbers on the various MF trigger affixes, such that builds which do badass things but don't have many affix slots to play with could spare just a few and get the same results as a build with lots of affix slots to play with. For Johnny/Spikes, giving MF affixes unique triggers gives the affix the build identity which Johnnies crave.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

When you get to the bottom of this, the real psychological root of the QQ, it's about wanting the Spike builds to have more overlap with both Timmy and Johnny builds.

I agree with this.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

For some, it's more of a lashing out in frustration, and the suggestions aren't that great because they effectively destroy Spike; the thread title is actually a horrible idea, and even I'm guilty of irrationally hating on MF in the past, a move I'd likely regret.

I don't agree that reducing or removing MF affixes on items destroys Spike. Spike will always be about maximizing the game inside its constraints. Reducing those constraints doesn't change Spike's psychological profile.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

But I believe that making MF affixes build-dependent would be the answer. For Timmy/Spikes, you could balance the numbers on the various MF trigger affixes, such that builds which do badass things but don't have many affix slots to play with could spare just a few and get the same results as a build with lots of affix slots to play with. For Johnny/Spikes, giving MF affixes unique triggers gives the affix the build identity which Johnnies crave.

It's a million times better than what we have now, but I still am perplexed as to why magicfind must exist. Killing enemies is a form of magicfind, as is moving between enemies faster. Spikes will still value the builds that clear the fastest, Timmies will still value builds that kill really hard and move really fast because it's awesome, and Johnnies will still value coming up with creative ways to kill and move quickly.

The stat is a blackhole, and the more effort is given to balancing it, the farther people must be from the actual game of running around and killing things. I love maps that let people ratchet up the difficulty (well, minus Maze and Massive) in exchange for loot. Isn't that enough?

EDIT: I also want to add that, as a stat, it gives terrible feedback. Physical stats can easily be felt. Doubling your weapon dps feels stronger. Doubling your rarity... does it help? Can you tell? Maybe after tallying your drops over a long period of time, but not while playing.

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pneuma wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

For some, it's more of a lashing out in frustration, and the suggestions aren't that great because they effectively destroy Spike; the thread title is actually a horrible idea, and even I'm guilty of irrationally hating on MF in the past, a move I'd likely regret.

I don't agree that reducing or removing MF affixes on items destroys Spike. Spike will always be about maximizing the game inside its constraints. Reducing those constraints doesn't change Spike's psychological profile.

Well obviously not destroy it, but definitely hurt it. Those people posting in this thread not wanting MF to be changed? Those are some hardcore Spikes there, and they have a point — since every PvE character they build is a MF character at heart, utter destruction of MF affixes would be devastating to them. Would they recover? Sure... but then there'd be all these QQ threads to get MF reinstated. I'm trying to give everyone an answer they can be happy with.

The thing I've realized over the course of this thread is that there are a lot of Spikes out there who are likely particularly concerned with loot per map; the build they want to play is the one which gets maximizes how much currency/gear they get per map+currency they pay out. Currently MF affixes are the only method of accomplishing this. Are they too strong? Absolutely; getting double the quantity and triple the rarity, without any build dependency whatsoever, is far too much to be balanced. However, I think removing the ability to build around this goal would be amputating part of the game; it would utterly remove something beloved by part of the audience. As mentioned before, I support changing MF triggers to make them build-dependent, and I would acquiesce to a general MF nerf. However, I think utterly removing it would really hurt Spike's interest in PoE, and that's something we really shouldn't do.

Very nice arguments here on page 93.

One thing I want to add is that Timmy/Johnny/Spike labels for player types belongs, I suppose, to Brother Laz, who definitely understands what he is talking about after making one of the most successful D2 mods out there. I think this is a very solid reasoning to use.

Just wanted to respond personally to make it again a bit more dialogue-like:

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gmar84 wrote:

You are still going to be behind other people that play 12 hours a day whether MF is in the game or not. They are still going to find more items than you, simply because they are playing more than you.

MF would actually help you in this case.

MF will never help you in that. Opting out of MF will even make you get less loot, than players that play game for the same amount of time as you do.

It's just the same as with

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gmar84 wrote:

MF = I can make a MF char and use him to gear my others. You can choose not to do that if you want.
No MF = I can't do that. I am forced to play your way.

You just said it yourself. Will you personally ever opt out of Magic Find, or you secretly imply that would be inefficient, and offer anyone else to have "the option" to be inefficient?

Yesterday on the Partyboard:


Docks - only Dual Spork or kick

DOCKS FARMING - Dual Spork only

Doing Maps - Dual Spork 300+ IIR only


This shit isn't even funny anymore. The game is kind of unplayable without pure MF gear, which in return requires a no brainer dual totem crap build.

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Darkrox01 wrote:

This shit isn't even funny anymore. The game is kind of unplayable without pure MF gear, which in return requires a no brainer dual totem crap build.

Pretty much what I concluded, if you also toss in summoner builds. The build I'm currently leveling (late Cruel) is using the logic of going hard into summons (4-6L Zombies), thus going EB for aura stack, thus trying to use its own aura stack with Lightning Arrow IIQ IIR Culling Ranged Attack Totems (I already had a decent 5L bow). Kind of worried about the build right now, which is sad, because retry will be summons + Queen's Decree + low-life RF Spork totem.

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Darkrox01 wrote:

Yesterday on the Partyboard:


Docks - only Dual Spork or kick

DOCKS FARMING - Dual Spork only

Doing Maps - Dual Spork 300+ IIR only


This shit isn't even funny anymore. The game is kind of unplayable without pure MF gear, which in return requires a no brainer dual totem crap build.

there might be arguments for not totally removing MF from the game.

but they are mostly of some theoretical nature (like "if you do this,... then more or less nothing will change ... ")
"game-practice" prove they are wrong.
end of story

kill mf
adapt droprates
play the game.