Remove MF completely from game

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Reashu wrote:

If your build can't MF, your build is bad and you should feel bad for trying to pull others down with you.

Build can't kill things? Dies often? Agree, build sucks. But MF as the standard? Really?

I think the standard for whether a build is bad or not is how awesomely it can kill things. You can correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems like a pretty sane standard.

The existence of fucked-up affixes leads to the creation of fucked-up standards.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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Reashu wrote:

If your build can't MF, your build is bad and you should feel bad for trying to pull others down with you.

Build can't kill things? Dies often? Agree, build sucks. But MF as the standard? Really?

I think the standard for whether a build is bad or not is how awesomely it can kill things. You can correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems like a pretty sane standard.

The existence of fucked-up affixes leads to the creation of fucked-up standards.

But if you are awesomely killing things, I'm sure there's room for MF in your build... MF just happens to be the go-to answer for "my build is stronger than it needs to be, how do I gain maximum advantage from that?"

In an ARPG, I do think "efficiency" and "maximum advantage" are pretty much the point of the game. If you have fun killing things, that's good - but it will only last so long. Meanwhile your hunt for maximum efficiency and advantage is going to take forever :)

I don't mean to say that we need MF for this, only that it's an easy way to reward efficient builds and not bad in and of itself.

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Reashu wrote:

But if you are awesomely killing things, I'm sure there's room for MF in your build... MF just happens to be the go-to answer for "my build is stronger than it needs to be, how do I gain maximum advantage from that?"

And in my previous posts I have already explained why MF is a poor choice as the go-to affix for overkill; overkill is the proper go-to affix for overkill.

i think it would be enough if they just remove these stupid penaltys :(
when my char is lvl 81 and i MUST FARM 66 MAPS (cause no higher maps drop)then i have -32,5%mf penalty, am i right?
thats really not fair :(

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

"

Reashu wrote:

But if you are awesomely killing things, I'm sure there's room for MF in your build... MF just happens to be the go-to answer for "my build is stronger than it needs to be, how do I gain maximum advantage from that?"

And in my previous posts I have already explained why MF is a poor choice as the go-to affix for overkill; overkill is the proper go-to affix for overkill.

No you haven't. You have said that MF is a bad choice, and provided no alternatives.

Overkilling things is a reward, but only for so long. After melting 3000 zombies, I don't care how much wasted damage I'm doing. Killing stuff in ARPGs isn't intrinsically fun enough to last that long. In games like Disgaea (which is not an ARPG, but I do think the comparison is sound), I'll use game mechanics to make enemies stronger, visit more difficult areas, etc. in order to use my extra strength. That'll last for hundreds of hours without running out of stronger things to kill. In PoE, that's simply not the case. The game isn't really built in a way that lets you progress to kill more difficult and more rewarding enemies. The game pretty much ends at level 75, and you can potentially be more than powerful enough well before then if you're lucky. What do you do with your remaining skill points and any equipment you don't need to kill things fast? MF gear and whatever passives you still need for the challenge. Disgaea lets you make the game stronger so it can challenge and reward you better. PoE should do this to, and it does a decent job of it right now (but wouldn't without MF gear).

Maps let you scale the game for additional rewards (and we seem to agree that they're a good way to do it), but maps are too rare and rolling maps is too random for this to be the only way. MF gear is a poor man's map mod - sacrifice a stat which could increase your damage, survivability, etc. for increased drops instead. I love the concept of maps and if maps themselves can be made reliable enough, or something else implemented as a more reliable alternative, I'd be happy to give up MF gear.

If there were something like a random dungeon of great length, perpetually increasing monster level and suitably scaled rewards, that might be another way. If we get that, I'm fine with forgetting MF gear and letting character strength be its own reward, because then the extra strength has a point. That's kind of what the Maelstrom was, and that didn't work out for various reasons, but I don't think it's impossible to make the concept work.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

overkill is the proper go-to affix for overkill.

why not have a choice?

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Why reward the less fun option?

Why not let the people decide what they feel as fun? Some cant imagine to NOT rush to merciless in less than some hours, some LIKE to do dozens of Merveil or Fellshrine runs...

Beside this: MF is not a bonus, its part of a restriction for going the more offensive/faceroll way... if you take it not ^^

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crackred wrote:

i think it would be enough if they just remove these stupid penaltys :(
when my char is lvl 81 and i MUST FARM 66 MAPS (cause no higher maps drop)then i have -32,5%mf penalty, am i right?
thats really not fair :(

That penalty applies to currency only. As far as items go, the only penalty is that the item level will be the same as the monster that dropped it, which excludes some mods and base types.

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Reashu wrote:

If there were something like a random dungeon of great length, perpetually increasing monster level and suitably scaled rewards, that might be another way. If we get that, I'm fine with forgetting MF gear and letting character strength be its own reward, because then the extra strength has a point. That's kind of what the Maelstrom was, and that didn't work out for various reasons, but I don't think it's impossible to make the concept work.

Maelstrom of Chaos (not the Unique map, which is called like that now!): Existed in CB and I think it was an endless tower? Although I was in CB, I arrived to late, to ever test it out.

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Reashu wrote:

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crackred wrote:

i think it would be enough if they just remove these stupid penaltys :(
when my char is lvl 81 and i MUST FARM 66 MAPS (cause no higher maps drop)then i have -32,5%mf penalty, am i right?
thats really not fair :(

That penalty applies to currency only. As far as items go, the only penalty is that the item level will be the same as the monster that dropped it, which excludes some mods and base types.

No Reashu, you are still counted as a level 68 player for currency drop purposes.

People wax lyrical about MoC, but then tended to roll Ledge, which was a huge loop-d-loop then, or rocky climb. anything else? reroll. In retrospect, I'm glad its gone, although people who want to 'nerf the grind' or had run out of maps, call for its return. With the raising of endgame levels to overlap maps level 66-68, its return will be unlikely.

To answer what its like, you enter from the Lab Finish all four difficulties, in the two Acts (then) (Oops, the Lab didn't exist then), you talk to Eramir in the Forest Camp, he combines all the amulets, you take the Combined Amulet to the Altar in the Pyramid. Activate the altar...Surprise! Vaal Oversoul didn't exist then until Maps were introduced! Go through the exit that would've taken you to Act 3, but lead back to the Forest Encampment, you then enter a MoC area from the new tab that appears under Merciless at the waypoint. You then come out at an entrance of a randomly generated instance, then fight your way to the end of the level, where there will be an exit at the end (like at the end of each area level in any Act) where you can enter that which will then take you to a new randomly generated area. Repeat ad-nauseum.

The old announcement introducing maps: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/55194. Also announces the introduction of 'an Act 2 boss' lol. Secret.

Youtube video for what it was like, by Perusoe:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPQD7JspOho

Ahhh, the nostalgia!

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THEHORNEDRAT wrote:

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Reashu wrote:

"

crackred wrote:

i think it would be enough if they just remove these stupid penaltys :(
when my char is lvl 81 and i MUST FARM 66 MAPS (cause no higher maps drop)then i have -32,5%mf penalty, am i right?
thats really not fair :(

That penalty applies to currency only. As far as items go, the only penalty is that the item level will be the same as the monster that dropped it, which excludes some mods and base types.

No Reashu, you are still counted as a level 68 player for currency drop purposes.

People wax lyrical about MoC, but then tended to roll Ledge, which was a huge loop-d-loop then, or rocky climb. anything else? reroll. In retrospect, I'm glad its gone, although people who want to 'nerf the grind' or had run out of maps, call for its return. With the raising of endgame levels to overlap maps level 66-68, its return will be unlikely.

To answer what its like, you enter from the Lab Finish all four difficulties, in the two Acts (then) (Oops, the Lab didn't exist then), you talk to Eramir in the Forest Camp, he combines all the amulets, you take the Combined Amulet to the Altar in the Pyramid. Activate the altar...Surprise! Vaal Oversoul didn't exist then until Maps were introduced! Go through the exit that would've taken you to Act 3, but lead back to the Forest Encampment, you then enter a MoC area from the new tab that appears under Merciless at the waypoint. You then come out at an entrance of a randomly generated instance, then fight your way to the end of the level, where there will be an exit at the end (like at the end of each area level in any Act) where you can enter that which will then take you to a new randomly generated area. Repeat ad-nauseum.

The old announcement introducing maps: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/55194. Also announces the introduction of 'an Act 2 boss' lol. Secret.

Youtube video for what it was like, by Perusoe:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPQD7JspOho

Ahhh, the nostalgia!

You're right about the lvl 68 "cap", I was too caught up in explaining that it only applied to currency drops to notice that.

I used to run Maelstrom in CB and there are a few things that could be done to address the known issues:
- Have a significant reward for running several floors in a row. I think MoC did have something like a ramping IIQ, but given how it was used I don't think it was sizable enough. You could start off with a quantity penalty in order to let it ramp up very quickly for the first few floors.
- Assure that the generation doesn't produce mazes or highways, or that it does so in a predictable way, e.g. every 10th floor is a huge maze.
- Charge the player an entry fee, which should be nominal with normal use but add up if you keep re-rolling.

But on second thought, it's just like maps except you're guaranteeing some sort of progress. I don't think there's room for both in one game.