Gameplay Help and Discussion - Remove MF completely from game - Forum

" Hovergame wrote: you'll pay in a field of characteristic one (you can ask to Yuri Manin about what they are, he's in Grenoble - France atm, as I am). AGAIN you show that you are extremely knowledgeable in abstract algebra. But lets take a look into it. A field of characteristic n means that sum of n ones equals to zero. (1+1+...<n times>...+1=0) You are talking about a field of characteristic one. So just 1 = 0. Just for you know, set with an equality 1 = 0 is not even considered a domain. To sum up: you tell me about field that actually is not field and offer me to ask famous Russian mathematician about it. Nice try! " Hovergame wrote: If you're as clueless in the game as you are in mathematics... How can you even say that, if you fail so hard in maths yourself? Last edited by Arhadon#5754 on Jul 4, 2013, 12:42:45 PM	Posted by Arhadon#5754 on Jul 4, 2013, 12:41:36 PM Quote this Post
" ScrotieMcB wrote: I've been thinking about it and the real thing that breaks MF in this game in particular, moreso than games like Diablos 1 and 2, is the map system. Your loot output per map — especially your maps looted per map — is both very important and utterly uneffected by killspeed, which actually makes it a completely different dynamic than in those games. I think this is part of the reason for the common perception that only survivability matters for the passive tree — dying may cause you to lose map progression, while killspeed won't change much — and why MF is the king of non-survivability gear stats — because this is what you need to chain maps. Your maps looted per map is also unaffected by your MF. Only the map IIQ. Explain.	Posted by Herpy_Derpleson#6025 on Jul 4, 2013, 12:42:08 PM Banned Quote this Post
IIQ is part of MF. IIQ/IIR are both MF. MF is not limited to just IIR. IIQ gives currency and increased items dropped hence more items to be rare. You need high IIQ to give you consistent map drops.. if not in the maps then in any 60+ monster zone which has an already incredibly low map rate drop. Not only map drops but also currency to change the map and make it better. Trying to get enough maps to make high level maps is just insane and if you dont have enough IIQ in a map to get consistent map drops your just stuck farming areas so low you feel like your getting 0xp not to mention the boredom of running the SAME MAPS over and over again. IGN: DeathIsMyBestFriend, Illirianah	Posted by Bishop120#1027 on Jul 4, 2013, 12:56:59 PM Quote this Post
" Herpy_Derpleson wrote: " ScrotieMcB wrote: I've been thinking about it and the real thing that breaks MF in this game in particular, moreso than games like Diablos 1 and 2, is the map system. Your loot output per map — especially your maps looted per map — is both very important and utterly uneffected by killspeed, which actually makes it a completely different dynamic than in those games. I think this is part of the reason for the common perception that only survivability matters for the passive tree — dying may cause you to lose map progression, while killspeed won't change much — and why MF is the king of non-survivability gear stats — because this is what you need to chain maps. Your maps looted per map is also unaffected by your MF. Only the map IIQ. Explain. I really didn't explain myself well enough, and I think technically I'm inaccurate there, so good catch. At this point, I've come to intuitively view currency as part of map cost. Thus the "cost of maps" has two components, the white maps themselves and the currency used to modify them. Thus increasing your currency drop rate increases your maps looted per map, indirectly. In short, everything you loot high-level essentially has a map tax, since the cost of finding and modifying maps is central to the ability to access said high-level loot. Since MF is the only thing that has any effect on your loot per map — not kill-speed, not move-speed — it's very overpowered currently. The fact that it doesn't impact maps directly is relatively minor, since it has no competition for effecting maps or any of the other stuff anyway. It's a case of strict superiority. When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted. Last edited by ScrotieMcB#2697 on Jul 4, 2013, 1:06:33 PM	Posted by ScrotieMcB#2697 on Jul 4, 2013, 1:05:07 PM Quote this Post
" ScrotieMcB wrote: In short, everything you loot high-level essentially has a map tax, since the cost of finding and modifying maps is central to the ability to access said high-level loot. Since MF is the only thing that has any effect on your loot per map — not kill-speed, not move-speed — it's very overpowered currently. The fact that it doesn't impact maps directly is relatively minor, since it has no competition for effecting maps or any of the other stuff anyway. It's a case of strict superiority. What I like about MF as a concept is that it's a mechanic that encourages party building. You make a high level map group, and you say "right, it would be nice to get one MF person". You can do without them, you might get a better clear time without them even, but you're better off with them if you want more/better loot. Of course, the real problem here is that you don't really say this about any other build or gear set or playstyle (except in rare cases such as "let's get someone who can oneshot Piety"). So it's basically the only "special skill" that you would desire in a party currently. This should be expanded on so that there are other character types that are desirable for a group and bring their own sets of upsides and downsides, to make party play more interesting and diverse.	Posted by exit_zero#4816 on Jul 4, 2013, 1:17:38 PM Quote this Post
" ScrotieMcB wrote: " Herpy_Derpleson wrote: " ScrotieMcB wrote: I've been thinking about it and the real thing that breaks MF in this game in particular, moreso than games like Diablos 1 and 2, is the map system. Your loot output per map — especially your maps looted per map — is both very important and utterly uneffected by killspeed, which actually makes it a completely different dynamic than in those games. I think this is part of the reason for the common perception that only survivability matters for the passive tree — dying may cause you to lose map progression, while killspeed won't change much — and why MF is the king of non-survivability gear stats — because this is what you need to chain maps. Your maps looted per map is also unaffected by your MF. Only the map IIQ. Explain. I really didn't explain myself well enough, and I think technically I'm inaccurate there, so good catch. At this point, I've come to intuitively view currency as part of map cost. Thus the "cost of maps" has two components, the white maps themselves and the currency used to modify them. Thus increasing your currency drop rate increases your maps looted per map, indirectly. In short, everything you loot high-level essentially has a map tax, since the cost of finding and modifying maps is central to the ability to access said high-level loot. Since MF is the only thing that has any effect on your loot per map — not kill-speed, not move-speed — it's very overpowered currently. The fact that it doesn't impact maps directly is relatively minor, since it has no competition for effecting maps or any of the other stuff anyway. It's a case of strict superiority. In other words - Challenging yourself with harder maps should be more beneficial than doing easy content with high MF, as far as obtaining phat lewt is concerned.	Posted by Novalisk#3583 on Jul 4, 2013, 1:26:16 PM Quote this Post
" Novalisk wrote: " ScrotieMcB wrote: Spoiler At this point, I've come to intuitively view currency as part of map cost. Thus the "cost of maps" has two components, the white maps themselves and the currency used to modify them. Thus increasing your currency drop rate increases your maps looted per map, indirectly. In short, everything you loot high-level essentially has a map tax, since the cost of finding and modifying maps is central to the ability to access said high-level loot. Since MF is the only thing that has any effect on your loot per map — not kill-speed, not move-speed — it's very overpowered currently. The fact that it doesn't impact maps directly is relatively minor, since it has no competition for effecting maps or any of the other stuff anyway. It's a case of strict superiority. In other words - Challenging yourself with harder maps should be more beneficial than doing easy content with high MF, as far as obtaining phat lewt is concerned. Not quite. What it means is that MF and not dying are the things that really matter for running maps, and the speed at which you kill things is almost totally irrelevant thanks to mechanics like MF and reflected damage, thus no one wants to invest in offense. When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted.	Posted by ScrotieMcB#2697 on Jul 4, 2013, 1:48:54 PM Quote this Post
" ScrotieMcB wrote: " Novalisk wrote: " ScrotieMcB wrote: Spoiler At this point, I've come to intuitively view currency as part of map cost. Thus the "cost of maps" has two components, the white maps themselves and the currency used to modify them. Thus increasing your currency drop rate increases your maps looted per map, indirectly. In short, everything you loot high-level essentially has a map tax, since the cost of finding and modifying maps is central to the ability to access said high-level loot. Since MF is the only thing that has any effect on your loot per map — not kill-speed, not move-speed — it's very overpowered currently. The fact that it doesn't impact maps directly is relatively minor, since it has no competition for effecting maps or any of the other stuff anyway. It's a case of strict superiority. In other words - Challenging yourself with harder maps should be more beneficial than doing easy content with high MF, as far as obtaining phat lewt is concerned. Not quite. What it means is that MF and not dying are the things that really matter for running maps, and the speed at which you kill things is almost totally irrelevant thanks to mechanics like MF and reflected damage, thus no one wants to invest in offense. Close enough. I stand by my original suggestion: Halve current IIR+IIQ values on gear+gems, and have rare maps grant IIR as well as IIQ.	Posted by Novalisk#3583 on Jul 4, 2013, 1:59:46 PM Quote this Post
" Novalisk wrote: " ScrotieMcB wrote: Not quite. What it means is that MF and not dying are the things that really matter for running maps, and the speed at which you kill things is almost totally irrelevant thanks to mechanics like MF and reflected damage, thus no one wants to invest in offense. Close enough. I stand by my original suggestion: Halve current IIR+IIQ values on gear+gems, and have rare maps grant IIR as well as IIQ. I'm confused. If you're not disagreeing with me that offense is made irrelevant by a warped system, and that MF is a huge part of that system, then how on earth can you stand by your original suggestion? MF should be gone, and people who want loot faster should be concerned with increasing the speed at which they clear maps, not the amount they get per map (with the sole exception of actually using orbs on the map to actually make it harder). When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted.	Posted by ScrotieMcB#2697 on Jul 4, 2013, 2:03:19 PM Quote this Post
" ScrotieMcB wrote: " Novalisk wrote: " ScrotieMcB wrote: Not quite. What it means is that MF and not dying are the things that really matter for running maps, and the speed at which you kill things is almost totally irrelevant thanks to mechanics like MF and reflected damage, thus no one wants to invest in offense. Close enough. I stand by my original suggestion: Halve current IIR+IIQ values on gear+gems, and have rare maps grant IIR as well as IIQ. I'm confused. If you're not disagreeing with me that offense is made irrelevant by a warped system, and that MF is a huge part of that system, then how on earth can you stand by your original suggestion? MF should be gone, and people who want loot faster should be concerned with increasing the speed at which they clear maps, not the amount they get per map (with the sole exception of actually using orbs on the map to actually make it harder). I agree that offense is made less efficient than it should, but not irrelevant. Nerfing MF like I said takes care of the problem, and removing MF entirely is too much to ask at this stage of the game, it's a very uncompromising request.	Posted by Novalisk#3583 on Jul 4, 2013, 2:26:59 PM Quote this Post