Remove MF completely from game

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Daefecator wrote:

His wealth is too low to buy a new set ASAP. He has a few solutions available :
1) RMT.
2) Farm lower content (or reroll a new char, which is vrtually the same).
3) Gamble (in any way : he can try to do some maps at high risk, threw the few orbs he has into crafting, etc) and pray the RNG Gods.
You just forgot another option.
4) Roll a Magic Find toon and don't have this problem.

As new players play the game more, they will sooner or later realize this, so 4) is more like answer the question

2+2 =
1) 3
2) 5
3) 0
4) 4

Magic Find is only a matter of learning just as your typical multi-choice exam test, as is a noob trap.

MF was obviously into the second option (farm lower content with MF to get alteration shards), but you want to troll. But ok, let's imagine a world without MF, he will have the choice between :
1) Gamble
2) Cheat
3) Kill lower mobs (who won't drop much currency due to the level difference) or reroll.

Consequence : more players will cheat and use RMT. Simple consequence. In fact, removing MF WILL promote RMT.

PS 2+2 = 0 in Z/4Z, you didn't specified in which ring you were calculating. If you're as clueless in the game as you are in mathematics, no wonder why you're saying that MF is promoting RMT .....

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mazul wrote:

It would make the setup for maximizing efficiency harder to calculate. Clearing speed and magic find stats would have to compete. Currently it is far too easy. And yeah, there comes a point where extra magic find is not worth as much as faster clearing speed regardless of build.

What I personally feel after so many pages on topic is that in the equation that is sometimes being talked about of "Magic Find - Kill speed - Survivability", that this never comes to triple choice actually. Softcore players tend to ignore third part up to a point in the game when they get surprised about high death penalties.

Playing hardcore changes things drastically, as basically third part of equation is a requirement. Desyncs and reflect damage guarantee that. Assuming you can never choose everything at once, the choices you actually have are balancing "Magic Find - Survivability" or balancing "Kill Speed - Survivability". Second option is non-viable, it was stated earlier multiple times, you will have close to no loot, close to no currency, and won't be able to sustain high level maps. Flashlight: Built character is now able to run any map effectively, but doomed to farm only lower level maps.

When building your character between Magic Find and Survivability, definitely ranged builds are preferred, as the game's top defense is actually staying away from monster's melee range. And dual totems give you significant survivability boost (even one skeleton totem makes wonders - it allowed my 83 HC witch survive literally everything including Kole map boss). When you use totems offensively - it's actually 2 in 1. That's why spark/fork (spork) totems are so insane.

When you start gearing up MF character, your kill speed is not any less than other non-geared specs, but as you play more and more, you have much better chances to gear yourself up than other specs. Do you really want to gear up your main via your MF toon?

This reminds me of Rising Force Online - when 90+% of your play time you farm with another character for your main. RF online is an MMO, so that could be reasonable. But I definitely do not want to be forced to play ARPG like that. This just kills the spirit of an ARPG game for me.

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Daefecator wrote:

[
Playing hardcore changes things drastically, as basically third part of equation is a requirement. Desyncs and reflect damage guarantee that. Assuming you can never choose everything at once, the choices you actually have are balancing "Magic Find - Survivability" or balancing "Kill Speed - Survivability". Second option is non-viable, it was stated earlier multiple times, you will have close to no loot, close to no currency, and won't be able to sustain high level maps.

Just because YOU CAN'T DO IT, something is impossible. Many players CAN PLAY WITHOUT MF, but you refuse to face it and bame MF for your inability of doing it.

Example ? Gankstaboo

What, he plays a lot ? What has MF to do in this ? And a lot of players are doing it ATM, you're just too blind to see it. The major issue about maps is simple : we don't have enough maps, and MF has nothing to do here. If you're running out of currencies and still have maps, you're doing it wrong, and the problem isn't MF but you.

And I still fail to understand how removing MF AND not increase the rates is going to solve anything. You'll need to farm more to get enough currencies to roll your maps. Unless, of course, you'll ask for higher rates next week, but hide now.

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Hovergame wrote:

PS 2+2 = 0 in Z/4Z, you didn't specified in which ring you were calculating. If you're as clueless in the game as you are in mathematics, no wonder why you're saying that MF is promoting RMT .....

God, I can't just let it go. Please, i am begging you, sell me Kaom's Heart on Hardcore, I will pay you in Z/4Z ring. How much's it? 61 exalts? Okey, have my 1 exalt for it. I'm not ripping off you, 1 = 61 in Z/4Z.

P.S. If you think your first-university-year (can't remember how is it called) knowledge in maths allow you to mock at people, then you are wrong.

The problem with magic find is it trumps everything when you start gearing up, and is almost unnecessary when you almost completed your gear set (as in the example or that specific character).

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Arhadon wrote:

P.S. If you think your first-university-year (can't remember how is it called) knowledge in maths allow you to mock at people, then you are wrong.

I'm mocking a guy who is saying "less orbs available = less RMT". Question : if you are a RMT user and if your chance to get orbs are lowered (i.e no change in rates but no MF farming), will you buy LESS orbs ?

PS Ok, I sell you a Kaom in Onslaught, you'll pay in a field of characteristic one (you can ask to Yuri Manin about what they are, he's in Grenoble - France atm, as I am).

And Daefecator is trolling again :) Onslaught started not so long ago and guess what ? There are many non-MF chars in the top, he's just refusing to notice them.

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Daefecator wrote:

Spoiler

Earlier in this thread (+ actually on the previous page as well) it was said, that the "secret" to rolling maps cheap is to actually alchemy a map then go through it.

The sense of this is like that:
- if it rolls affixes that are unbearable for you, the build you are running is imperfect and should better be refined
- if it rolls without maze / pack size, then it will possibly lead to you no longer be able to sustain maps.

As first issue can easily be dismissed as l2p question, it's just the matter of time until me personally (or anyone else) comes with his own build of awesomesauce. In order to somehow mitigate the butthurt and overall disappointment when facing with inability to sustain maps, Herpy actually adviced a rather interesting thing - farm what can be easily farmed in the build you have atm, and just sell all maps that aren't (level 71 and above do not even worth attempting).

At first, this looks like complete crap, but in fact it isn't. Rolling maps cheap, stockpiling orbs to buy you some loot - is exactly what in my opinion promotes RMT deals, that are against ToS. I stand for removing of Magic Find. Solves solo/party problems, turns "Magic Find - Invalid" choice into valid "Movement Speed - Kill Speed - Survivability" option, lowers incentive for botters/farmers opening a road to fair players. And all this evils are downed in one blow.

WTF? RMT? Inability to sustain mapping? You reach completely the opposite conclusion to me at every point. You misinterpret my words constantly. You appear to not have a clue what you're talking about, this seems more to me like half-understood regurgitations of others posts.

I don't even...

I've been thinking about it and the real thing that breaks MF in this game in particular, moreso than games like Diablos 1 and 2, is the map system. Your loot output per map — especially your maps looted per map — is both very important and utterly uneffected by killspeed, which actually makes it a completely different dynamic than in those games.

I think this is part of the reason for the common perception that only survivability matters for the passive tree — dying may cause you to lose map progression, while killspeed won't change much — and why MF is the king of non-survivability gear stats — because this is what you need to chain maps.

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Hovergame wrote:

"

Daefecator wrote:

[
Playing hardcore changes things drastically, as basically third part of equation is a requirement. Desyncs and reflect damage guarantee that. Assuming you can never choose everything at once, the choices you actually have are balancing "Magic Find - Survivability" or balancing "Kill Speed - Survivability". Second option is non-viable, it was stated earlier multiple times, you will have close to no loot, close to no currency, and won't be able to sustain high level maps.

Just because YOU CAN'T DO IT, something is impossible. Many players CAN PLAY WITHOUT MF, but you refuse to face it and bame MF for your inability of doing it.

Example ? Gankstaboo

What, he plays a lot ? What has MF to do in this ? And a lot of players are doing it ATM, you're just too blind to see it. The major issue about maps is simple : we don't have enough maps, and MF has nothing to do here. If you're running out of currencies and still have maps, you're doing it wrong, and the problem isn't MF but you.

And I still fail to understand how removing MF AND not increase the rates is going to solve anything. You'll need to farm more to get enough currencies to roll your maps. Unless, of course, you'll ask for higher rates next week, but hide now.

Are you implying that Gangstaboo's party does not have a character with high magic find to do last hits? (I don't know, I am asking :D).

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Hovergame wrote:

Question : if you are a RMT user and if your chance to get orbs are lowered (i.e no change in rates but no MF farming), will you buy LESS orbs ?

There will be LESS to sell in the first place. The price per piece will probably be higher, but people will buy less orbs overall. And less cases of illegal RMT means they could be tracked down easier by GGG. Call this trolling or not, it's just common sense.

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Hovergame wrote:

Onslaught started not so long ago and guess what ? There are many non-MF chars in the top, he's just refusing to notice them.

Exactly this was addressed in my previous post. Do you even?..

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Daefecator wrote:

The problem with magic find is it trumps everything when you start gearing up, and is almost unnecessary when you almost completed your gear set (as in the example or that specific character).

Top players may not have MF, as long as they already obtained most of their gear. But if they suddenly decide to start playing solo, the chance for them to even see items similar to the ones they already own are very low.

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mazul wrote:

Are you implying that Gangstaboo's party does not have a character with high magic find to do last hits?

Would love to read the answer as well.