Remove MF completely from game

MF is a stupid stat. It doesn't offer any new playstyles or content, it doesn't really change anything other than the rewards for doing what you would have been doing anyway, and it imposes this paradoxical opportunity cost for not doing it. Since the game is all about acquiring better items, there's never a point where it makes sense to stop wearing your inferior MF gear.

It's like having to choose between the job you love and the job that pays well enough to be worth doing, which is the kind of annoying decision we have to make in real life, not something we want to deal with in a video game. The stat serves no purpose and offers nothing, it just punishes the player for doing what the game is all about: upgrading your gear.

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LostForm wrote:

I still argue fast clear speed trumps slow clear speed + mf . Trigger gems have changed the game in regards to options for dealing with reflect and clear speed focused characters are more viable than ever.

They aren't mutually exclusive, though. That's kinda the thing. Farming is done in easier content anyway, and there's no significant loss of clear speed from wearing a reasonable amount of IIR gear. That's where the problem lies -- one does not have to really give up anything except, crucially, for one important thing: actually wearing your upgrades, as is the entire point of the game yet fiercely discouraged by the fact that upgrading your gear makes it harder to upgrade your gear.

It's completely illogical, and MF has already been recognized as the flawed, broken mechanic that it is. This is why other games have been filtering it out, either by completely removing it or by changing the source of it to something other than your items. It really is a paradox to have MF as a stat on items because it's wholly counter-intuitive and self-defeating. If you find a new ring, do you wear it or keep wearing your MF ring which will make you much more likely to find a better weapon as well? You either stick with MF forever or you eventually resign yourself to willingly sacrificing most of your gear upgrade source in a game where gear upgrades are basically the driving force.

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If MF wasnt an option, every build would be clear speed oriented, and we would be in the very same situation with people claiming you 'have to use x kinda build to compete in the economy', and they would be more correct than the current complaints about mf.

No because there isn't some mutually exclusive but equally viable alternative to clear speed. It's not like people are going to go 'I really want to use this build that kills slowly instead of the one that kills fast, but it's not rewarding!' Aside from surviving, the sole purpose of every build in this game is to kill effectively. It's the entire point of the gameplay. You can't make that kind of analogy, it isn't valid here. Every build is already clear speed oriented, which is fine and intended.

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engqvist85 wrote:

MF is a stupid stat. It doesn't offer any new playstyles or content, it doesn't really change anything other than the rewards for doing what you would have been doing anyway, and it imposes this paradoxical opportunity cost for not doing it. Since the game is all about acquiring better items, there's never a point where it makes sense to stop wearing your inferior MF gear.

It's like having to choose between the job you love and the job that pays well enough to be worth doing, which is the kind of annoying decision we have to make in real life, not something we want to deal with in a video game. The stat serves no purpose and offers nothing, it just punishes the player for doing what the game is all about: upgrading your gear.

Farming easy content is a playstyle. Some people like to challenge themselves; some people like to play with one hand and drink Mountain Dew with the other. I understand there is a widespread contempt for wanting to do this, but it's unfounded; choosing the pace of play, and whether you take on Palace Dominus or just farm Docks over and over, is something which should be left in the hands of each individual player, without forcing a particular decision, allowing everyone to set their own pace. Generally speaking, higher content intrinsically has better rewards, and gimping yourself your survival/DPS with MF affixes means that you won't be able to farm said higher-level content.

However

you have a point about opportunity cost. If you apply a big enough multiplier to the rewards of low-level content, it begins to outstrip the rewards of higher-level content. And there is something wrong with playing unchallenging content and being better rewarded for it than if you had challenged yourself. Using MF affixes should mean an opportunity cost of not getting other affixes, making farming low-level zones with MF just as challenging and rewarding as farming high-level zones without it.

This is not historically how MF affixes have worked; instead, it's an outrageously large multiplier to loot reward, to such an extent that MF has been the way to go.

This is how it should be: a player who seeks survival/DPS affixes gets X reward for doing, say, 70s maps, while a player who seeks MF affixes in the same quantity and of the same quality of the 70s-maps-runner gets a multiplier which turns his low-maps reward into X. You got the same gear challenges — they both need affixes on their gear — and you have the same rewards.

Since MF in Path of Exile determines not just loot per unit time, but also loot per map, this kind of balance is more important than usual, which is why it's a shame that all GGG seemed to have done was take where Diablo 2 had left off and copy it. Sorry, but MF is one thing which D2 actually did wrong; it was entirely OP in that game.

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Jakabov wrote:

They aren't mutually exclusive, though. That's kinda the thing. Farming is done in easier content anyway, and there's no significant loss of clear speed from wearing a reasonable amount of IIR gear.

On easier levels, there are no valuable items to be had. Used to be Andvarius, but that's gone now. Farming low level content, you get useless rares that you vendor for alts and uniques that are unsellable. Doing this 8 hours a day, you can get rich in about 5-7 years. Good luck with that, especially with 1% of users with in-game wealth having driven up prices of great items to where the other 99% cant reach.

With MF having been nerfed, now smarter farming is having an OP build that can rip through Piety, Dominus in 1min, or solo highest level maps all day long. A sporker or any other build with 400% IIR cant do it. Doing anything else is just wasting your time and wont get you anywhere.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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engqvist85 wrote:

MF is a stupid stat. It doesn't offer any new playstyles or content, it doesn't really change anything other than the rewards for doing what you would have been doing anyway, and it imposes this paradoxical opportunity cost for not doing it. Since the game is all about acquiring better items, there's never a point where it makes sense to stop wearing your inferior MF gear.

It's like having to choose between the job you love and the job that pays well enough to be worth doing, which is the kind of annoying decision we have to make in real life, not something we want to deal with in a video game. The stat serves no purpose and offers nothing, it just punishes the player for doing what the game is all about: upgrading your gear.

Farming easy content is a playstyle. Some people like to challenge themselves; some people like to play with one hand and drink Mountain Dew with the other. I understand there is a widespread contempt for wanting to do this, but it's unfounded; choosing the pace of play, and whether you take on Palace Dominus or just farm Docks over and over, is something which should be left in the hands of each individual player, without forcing a particular decision, allowing everyone to set their own pace. Generally speaking, higher content intrinsically has better rewards, and gimping yourself your survival/DPS with MF affixes means that you won't be able to farm said higher-level content.

However

you have a point about opportunity cost. If you apply a big enough multiplier to the rewards of low-level content, it begins to outstrip the rewards of higher-level content. And there is something wrong with playing unchallenging content and being better rewarded for it than if you had challenged yourself. Using MF affixes should mean an opportunity cost of not getting other affixes, making farming low-level zones with MF just as challenging and rewarding as farming high-level zones without it.

This is not historically how MF affixes have worked; instead, it's an outrageously large multiplier to loot reward, to such an extent that MF has been the way to go.

This is how it should be: a player who seeks survival/DPS affixes gets X reward for doing, say, 70s maps, while a player who seeks MF affixes in the same quantity and of the same quality of the 70s-maps-runner gets a multiplier which turns his low-maps reward into X. You got the same gear challenges — they both need affixes on their gear — and you have the same rewards.

Since MF in Path of Exile determines not just loot per unit time, but also loot per map, this kind of balance is more important than usual, which is why it's a shame that all GGG seemed to have done was take where Diablo 2 had left off and copy it. Sorry, but MF is one thing which D2 actually did wrong; it was entirely OP in that game.

There is a huge difference between farming lower content with huge IIR/IIQ and higher content witout or with less:
Ilvl.
Ilvl is a HARD cap that even with 1million% iir you can't overcome. The chance for the best ever item will always be at lvls 76+ maps. Now, if you can farm there with full IIQ/IIR gear then props for you.

As far as OP stating that IIQ/IIR on some builds is more easy compared to others then they either built their character low life to do so (and that has it's own problems) or it is simply not true, all builds benefit from OTHER mods than iir more.

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There is a huge difference between farming lower content with huge IIR/IIQ and higher content witout or with less:
Ilvl.
Ilvl is a HARD cap that even with 1million% iir you can't overcome. The chance for the best ever item will always be at lvls 76+ maps. Now, if you can farm there with full IIQ/IIR gear then props for you.

ilvl doesn't seem to make much difference if the suffix and prefix pages are accurate. The difference between items found in docks and lvl77 maps is

19% physical dmg, 9 life , 4 resistances , 2% attack speed and so on and that's only if they roll the very highest mod with the max roll possible which they rarely do.

Finding 200+ items per hour that can spawn +90-99 to life is always going to trump finding 50+ items that can roll +100-109 to life

UP

Magic find is a frustrating stat on equipment.

While using it brings that vegas-style rush of gambling that many people like(Even me), it just makes you WAY too flimsy for survival in the current style of the game.

It's also very frustrating when your party members refuse to use anything but MF gear, resulting in one person carrying the others(I have this problem daily since I party with the same friends, one of them my de-facto duoing partner who I only recently convinced to switch to real gear after he realized he can't survive jack.

I think IIR and IIQ gems are fantastic, and should be more of the focal point for Magic Find over gear. Instead of sacrificing survivability, you sacrifice skill utility and damage for more of the IIQ and IIR you want. If someone wants to link 5 IIR gems to cleave(for example), that should be the way to go. It may take longer to kill, or you may build to last-hit groups with your IIR/IIQ skill, but you don't sacrifice your own survivability through your gear directly. Any gear you find with those gems can upgrade your real usable gear, and not some arbitrary IIR/IIQ gear with bad stats that you use only because it rolled the best IIR/IIQ mods.

If gems took center stage, people could just have a 2h weapon or Body Armor with the IIR/IIQ gems socketed to a damage skill on it to swap to when they want to Magic Find. When they are done magic finding, or need to forgo it for a hard rare monster spawned, they can swap one piece of equipment to go back to normal(instead of a whole page full of gear).

In my opinion, magic Find gear should be disabled at the start of a new season. Legacy pieces should just have the IIR/IIQ mods do nothing, and have a cheap recipe available to remove the IIR/IIQ mod from weapons, with gold amulets and rings sellable back for an unidentified ring of choice with a cheap recipe. Uniques should have the MF stat changed and any unique with it sellable back for the same unique with the stat removed in some cheap recipe. All this applies to standard/hardcore.

TL;DR in my opinion, I feel the IIR/IIQ gems linked to skills should be the way to Magic Find, with Magic Find gear disappearing. Guild Wars 2 was able to remove their Magic Find gear(With an interesting account-wide solution, which I don't think would be right in POE), so it's not impossible to change Magic Find on a large scale.

At least if it was removed I wouldn't have to carry my party members all the time. I could care less about my survivability, but in a party when mobs have more health, I can't have people dying on me or being extremely afraid to fight from fear of dying.

Again, this is all my opinion. I don't care if GGG never changes it, but this is how I would prefer it.

I have MF + 5 auras fully buffed + conduit with powercharges and endurance charges.
Noone will carry me while im MF. I carry every1 and i have 70dps.
U mad?

I do think game enjoyment would be much improved without magic find. Remove magic find, slightly increase drops and rare finds across the board..... and replace magic find with something that increases fun factor.