Why does Lioneye's Glare have no drawback?

"

heyyous wrote:

Yeah Lioneyes has basically no competition. Not to mention that "hits cannot evaded" mod is a god amongst kings.

I feel that way about Thunderfists but no one is crying for that to be nerfed. I honestly can't think of a better pair of gloves I'd prefer to wear, rare or otherwise.

I simply don't get it why every item needs to have a drawback of some sort. Some items have to be the best/almost the best ones eventually and I want to feel excited if I finally manage to find one.

Let's compare this to D2. It hat a lot of amazing endgame uniques, which many people were striving for and finding one caused loads of excitement. I can't remember any serious drawbacks they had, other than being outshadowed by perfectly rolled/crafted rares. Why can't it be like this in PoE? Let there be endgame uniques, which you can use unitl you replace them with a perfectly rolled rare.

Ok, that might be technically impossible right now with the current pre/suffix ranges, but I think people forget that the current stage of the game is not the end. LG is level 66, but what about possible upcoming level 75, 84, 92 or even level 100 unique bows, with the respective increase in pre/suffix ranges for rares?

What we have right now is the current endgame, but only because the game isn't finished yet. The current "endgame" items might be easily surpassed by upcoming additions, when the state of the game is progressing further and all of a sudden LG might turn into an only mediocre midgame item. That's why I think nerfs for current "endgame" items isn't necessary at the moment. It will all even out itself after the game is nearing its completion.

Finding an unique in PoE excites me so much, because I know they often can make a difference. A feeling I dearly missed when finding uniques in another popular hack & slay game.

"

Soulscythe wrote:

I simply don't get it why every item needs to have a drawback of some sort. Some items have to be the best/almost the best ones eventually and I want to feel excited if I finally manage to find one.

Let's compare this to D2. It hat a lot of amazing endgame uniques, which many people were striving for and finding one caused loads of excitement. I can't remember any serious drawbacks they had, other than being outshadowed by perfectly rolled/crafted rares. Why can't it be like this in PoE? Let there be endgame uniques, which you can use unitl you replace them with a perfectly rolled rare.

Ok, that might be technically impossible right now with the current pre/suffix ranges, but I think people forget that the current stage of the game is not the end. LG is level 66, but what about possible upcoming level 75, 84, 92 or even level 100 unique bows, with the respective increase in pre/suffix ranges for rares?

What we have right now is the current endgame, but only because the game isn't finished yet. The current "endgame" items might be easily surpassed by upcoming additions, when the state of the game is progressing further and all of a sudden LG might turn into an only mediocre midgame item. That's why I think nerfs for current "endgame" items isn't necessary at the moment. It will all even out itself after the game is nearing its completion.

Finding an unique in PoE excites me so much, because I know they often can make a difference. A feeling I dearly missed when finding uniques in another popular hack & slay game.

Thank you for adding a voice of reason. My sentiments echo yours entirely!

"

scribblet wrote:

"

heyyous wrote:

Yeah Lioneyes has basically no competition. Not to mention that "hits cannot evaded" mod is a god amongst kings.

I feel that way about Thunderfists but no one is crying for that to be nerfed. I honestly can't think of a better pair of gloves I'd prefer to wear, rare or otherwise.

I agree that TFists are strong and that they could use a flavorful downside, but when compared to defensive (life or es, dual or trires) gloves with IAS, they don't hold up.

There is no easy alternative to Lioneye's, in comparison.

"

scribblet wrote:

"

heyyous wrote:

Yeah Lioneyes has basically no competition. Not to mention that "hits cannot evaded" mod is a god amongst kings.

I feel that way about Thunderfists but no one is crying for that to be nerfed. I honestly can't think of a better pair of gloves I'd prefer to wear, rare or otherwise.

Give me one legitimate reason as to why you considering one item to be overpowered is just cause to not nerf another item that is blatantly overpowered.

"

Castablanca wrote:

Spoiler

"

Uvne wrote:

I thought that, given the precedent with Kaom's and Silverbranch, that the policy going forward is to allow the parent leagues to effectively become legacy leagues and to only rebalance in respect to the ladder resets. That said, I don't see where "rude" comes into making balance decisions. I have a 5L Lioneye's and I can acknowledge that it's one of the worst cases of unique design in the game, and would be happy to see it addressed.

+1

I totally agree. Allow the parent leagues to become legacy leagues. Please re-balance without affecting the existing items, especially when end-game godly items are on the chopping block.

No. That is ridiculous.

Chris has said that our characters and items in OB were supposed to be permanent and I am sure he didn't mean that it would be moved to a legacy league once the game is officially released because then everybody would have just wasted months of time getting their characters to a high level and obtaining items.

"

Castablanca wrote:

But, what do you guys think about this as a compromise?
Keep existing items as is, just like the Legacy Nats of D3. Change the future drops of Lioneye's.

If a nerf is necessary, then yes. This is the best and fairest way. However, unlike Silverbranch, GGG should announce the change at least 1-2 months ahead of time because getting Lioneye's wasn't trivial (i.e. it took many hours/currency to get) so people who do want to spend currency to get one before it's nerfed or who would rather sell theirs off for a large sum of currency can still do so.

"

Castablanca wrote:

Spoiler

"

sidtherat wrote:

uou havent answered: how many bow users would choose NOT to use LG if presented with a choice? i still stand by 'ZERO' answer

Depends on the build :)
For lightning arrow builds, 100% would choose Lioneye's.
However, for Rain of Arrows builds, it's 50/50. Why? Because Rain of Arrows is a pure physical skill. Together with Lioneye's pure physical damage output, the only way Rain of Arrows can take advantage of the elemental boosts from gear and passives is through Blackgleam.

for example, if a Lioneye's user with a rare quiver wanted to go Rain of Arrows, he would be almost completely wasting all of the affixes on that rare quiver (such as +% weapon elemental damage). The only thing that would be boosted would be the elemental damage provided by Hatred, Wrath, and Anger (and that is not Lioneye's responsibility :P )

(i'm going to use my bow and quiver as an example)

My rare quiver is absolutely insane GG and worth much more than my blackgleam.
But, I come out with ~25% more dps with the blackgleam FML.

The reason Blackgleam is so powerful with Lioneye is because of the Weapon Elemental Damage gem which has a large more damage modifier. Once GGG implements some sort of a Ranged Physical Damage gem with a more damage modifier (currently there are only melee physical damage gems), then the Blackgleam + Lioneye's combo will be less common because pure physical bow builds will actually be more viable.

And if GGG never implements such a gem, then elemental bow users will very likely continue to reign supreme over physical bow users.. especially with all the elemental damage auras and the lack of a single physical damage aura.

"

deteego wrote:

Spoiler

The whole point of balance in online competitive game (in this case, competition over resource), is it effects everyone

If Lioneyes gets nerfed, it needs to get nerfed for everyone. There is no ifs and buts. If it doesn't get nerfed for everyone, old Lioneyes price will skyrocket, and it will just cause inflation for the select few people that do have old Lioneyes (and thats not even talking about the negative impacts on the economy)

The only reason you are saying this is because you happen to own a Lioneyes, and hence your arguments are subjective when it comes to this matter

It's not a matter of being biased or subjectivity (by the way we're all currently making subjective value judgement and statements, so it's all subjective). But I agree, please let's all leave emotions out of this.

The point of view you expressed does seems to make sense on the surface. However, when dealing with items that people have spent a significant amount of time and wealth to acquire, things are in a more murky ground. Imagine someone who has spent a large amount of exalted orbs to get a certain item and then realized that it was going to be nerfed. If he/she had only known it was going to be nerfed, he/she might have not bought it in the first place because since the item is going to be nerfed in the next patch, the value greatly decline. GGG would essentially cause the player to lose a couple of exalted orbs worth of value which the player could have easily used them for other gear upgrades.

For example, I don't have a Kaom's Heart, but I can still see that it would be really bad for users who spent months farming for one, finally acquired one, and have it nerfed in the next patch or two.

"

deteego wrote:

Spoiler

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Castablanca wrote:

then i guess i'm the one that'll get screwed. sigh.

We have all gotten screwed, welcome to beta. One of my builds was rendered useless due to changes. People have lost 1k+ life due to recent life node changes, it happens

At this point, all I have to say, is that it was blatantly obvious that Lioneyes is OP. Lioneyes abilty to never miss, is already worth like 30% of your passive tree, ontop of that it has damage and attack speed rolls that are almost the max you can get for bow items

Its like that guy that was complaining about his Marauder perma stun GS build when GGG made it impossible to perma stun units.

If something is too good to be true, it IS too good to be true

"

deteego wrote:

Spoiler

"

Castablanca wrote:

have all nerfs been retroactive in the past?

Every single on except for this

And the reason was for technical ones, which was explained by GGG extensively (odds are that bow will also get addressed at some point, if it doesn't, than it should)

The previous examples of "every single" nerf in the past being retroactive doesn't apply to this situation. They are bad analogies.

The nerfs you're thinking of are either on skill gems or passive skill tree. Skill gem nerfs are not so big of a deal because most of the time they don't cost a significant amount of wealth (probably 1-1.5 exalted maximum if they're 20% quality and very cheap/free if they're non-quality).

For passive skill tree nerfs, if people's pathways were affected, then GGG were kind enough to respec their points. Basically the players could replan their build if they feel strongly that their builds are now unplayable. Usually a "build now being unusable" is highly exaggerated and the builds are still very viable, but just not overpowered anymore like the players want them to be--there's the bias you speak so fondly of. In other words, GGG didn't rob the players of any significant amount of wealth or time investment.

On the other hand, all the examples of actual equipment changes has been similar to Silverbranch in that the effects will only be seen in future drops and can be obtained through a blessed or divine orbs if desired (e.g. the recent rustic sash buff).

Retroactively nerfing an item to change it's properties now that it's been dropped (if it's an expensive item, not some quality gem or Silverbranch) is equated to GGG essentially robbing those players of their time, labor, and hard-earned currencies.

"

Xendran wrote:

Spoiler

I remember back when i used lightning strike and i abused the fuck out of how overpowered it was. I also reported how overpowered it was and it got fixed. I no longer desired to use lightning stirke, so what did i do? I changed builds.

"

Chris wrote:

I'm speaking personally here and this doesn't reflect what GGG may or may not do with future changes to this item or to the game.

I personally completely agree with you and think that it should have a drawback. When it was rebalanced in the past, the power level was set a little too high. I regret that it wasn't fixed before Open Beta because it's a bit rude to change items that a lot of bow users are using. I don't know if it's going to get changed, but it's a situation that I don't like being in.

What the fuck? This legitimately angers me.
This is beta. Some people don't want their item to get nerfed? Deal with it. I'm sure you'll survive through the emotional trauma of a few angry emails.

This is just like me being told "Kaom's is just above the power curve". I went with it for the time, because we were getting new, higher ilvl mods then. Then we actually got them.
And from the looks of it, kaom's isn't above the power curve in the way that shiversting is. Kaoms is easily over 100 levels above the power curve.

Not only that, but HP on gear is messed up in the ilvl vs hp requirements.
Let's look at how many ilvls you need to gain in order to get 10 more max HP:

+10
+7
+6
+6
+6
+8
+10
+10
+9

But I digress.

No need to be angry.

As mentioned in a reply above, changes to gems and the passive are very different from changes to a end-game tier unique that is relatively hard to get.

I do agree that Lioneye's probably needs a partial nerf, but there are a variety of ways in doing so. I did like the idea suggested that Lioneye can't inflict any status ailments except stun, which albeit it's a nerf, it isn't too big of a nerf since it's more meant to be a physical bow anyway. It'll only nerf the elemental bow users who (rightly so) abuse all the elemental damage auras, Blackgleam, and weapon elemental damage gems. The other idea of improving accuracy is also a great indirect nerf to Lioneye's without actually having to change the item's properties. It's probably better for GGG to figure out a solution to the accuracy problem first to see where Lioneye stands afterwards.

I really like the idea that Lioneye won't be able to do any status ailment effects though since it's nerf, but not a game-breaking nerf. No chance to shock (and others, but shock is the most important) means a lot lower damage which coincides with the resolute technique keystone where you can't crit (lower damage). This nerf also won't completely render an expensive, high-tier item like Lioneye worthless. At the same time, elemental bow users should be using a tri-elemental damage rare bow anyway (or if GGG implements a strong end-game elemental bow in the future, that would work too). The only problem is that the elemental rare bow user's accuracy would be low and have a big loss in DPS... which is why GGG must also address the accuracy issue, once again.

As I have mentioned from Ranger Start Tree feedback thread (http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/411738/page/13/#p3780400) under the Dexterity as a attribute is very weak compared to str or int heading :

"If replacing the accuracy bonus from dex to another form of bonus is that much of a concern, simply add a couple more accuracy nodes around the entire tree of all classes while still leaving ranger with the most powerful ones. Just be sure to balance it in a way to make accuracy nodes a lot more powerful so it doesn't take an obscene amount to get a high accuracy % especially against monsters/PvE, but also for PvP. This will work for PvP because even if an opponent has a high hit/accuracy %, it'll be rolled against an evasion class's high evasion % and there's also curses like Enfeeble and gems like Blind to partially counter. Furthermore, this change will give Lioneye an indirect nerf (probably for the better) since accuracy will no longer be as important or hard to get."

"

Soulscythe wrote:

Spoiler

I simply don't get it why every item needs to have a drawback of some sort. Some items have to be the best/almost the best ones eventually and I want to feel excited if I finally manage to find one.

Let's compare this to D2. It hat a lot of amazing endgame uniques, which many people were striving for and finding one caused loads of excitement. I can't remember any serious drawbacks they had, other than being outshadowed by perfectly rolled/crafted rares. Why can't it be like this in PoE? Let there be endgame uniques, which you can use unitl you replace them with a perfectly rolled rare.

Ok, that might be technically impossible right now with the current pre/suffix ranges, but I think people forget that the current stage of the game is not the end. LG is level 66, but what about possible upcoming level 75, 84, 92 or even level 100 unique bows, with the respective increase in pre/suffix ranges for rares?

What we have right now is the current endgame, but only because the game isn't finished yet. The current "endgame" items might be easily surpassed by upcoming additions, when the state of the game is progressing further and all of a sudden LG might turn into an only mediocre midgame item. That's why I think nerfs for current "endgame" items isn't necessary at the moment. It will all even out itself after the game is nearing its completion.

Finding an unique in PoE excites me so much, because I know they often can make a difference. A feeling I dearly missed when finding uniques in another popular hack & slay game.

I actually agree with you. If GGG can fix the accuracy problem well, there might not even be a need for a nerf to Lioneye's. Just remember that GGG have said in the past that they didn't want our hard-earned items in OB to become obsolete even as the game progressed so the powerful level of new items should be relatively similar or only marginally higher than the best items we can obtain right now to be fair. It's not going to be like WoW where every expansion will make all the previous equipment basically obsolete compared to the new tier of items.

I also think it's actually okay to have certain uniques to be top-tiered and few downsides, but then again that's what I was used to in D2 so maybe I am biased. Kaom's is a unique that's top-tier, very powerful, yet has a huge downside so I thought it's very well done.

However, if there is a nerf to Lioneye, preferably it'll be something like the inability to cause status ailments where it definitely is a good nerf, but there are also ways to build around the downside as seen in Kaom's (no sockets) where you can opt to use a 2-handed weapon or Thunderfist which is eassentially a 5L. If they nerf the accuracy so that it won't always hit anymore or make it so the bow can no longer crit, that would be a terrible nerf because many people specifically get the bow so they can have 100% accuracy and crit. People didn't get the bow specifically for status ailments and chance to shock though, although it's an extension of the consequences of being able to crit.

Currently, with a Lioneye, you can:
1) Hit 100% of the time
2) Crit
3) Shock/Burn/Freeze

If we take away crit, then you're taking away both 2) and 3) and it'll just become a bow with resolute technique and a huge nerf to everyone using the bow.

If we only take away status ailments or 3), then it'll still be a nerf to everyone since physical bow users still tend to use elemental auras (there are no physical auras in the game currently), but more so to elemental bow users. However, elemental bow users can still crit and do extra damage, they just won't be able to shock stack, etc.

If Marceus Lioneye is also a more physical-type of attacker (I have no clue), then this will also fits better with the lore.

Edit: Typos

LG needs a nerf, indeed. Its actually best in slot for archers

Oh wait you can get a better rare bow... Maybe that bow spawns within 5 years

You are indeed missing something - and that is that rare thicket bows can also roll 11-115 lightning damage allowing it to far surpass the 343 dps maximum achievable by lions eye glare. I believe a perfect roll would be 420 or so dps. The issue is that RT is a 2 point investment and you lose the ability to crit and the fact that such a bow could not exist in the current crafting system. Also, as mentioned before, you need to use the horrible blackgleam's quiver to convert physical damage. Additionally, in order to get the most of lionseye you need to run hatred(forces you to use blood magic gem) and iron grip(forces you to traverse through the center of the skill tree).

Its an issue of accuracy being a poorly implemented mechanic. Accuracy nodes are a waste and accuracy itself is a suffix which removes the possibility a modifier slot that could instead be allocated by resistance,ias,fcr etc.

Here are some ways to balance these items without destroying them:

Koam's heart - allow rare chest armours (non pure ES) to roll up to 360 life instead of 109.
360 life in addition 6 linked sockets and 6 affix is a fair trade off vs 1000 life , no sockets and no affixes.

Lionseye glare - Improve the crafting system so >390 dps bows are more readily available. These bows will far surpass Lions's eye dps even when forced to take RT. Give bows an implicit modifier that gives a sizable amount of accuracy so a few passives in accuracy nodes would be enough to give 95% hit rate vs level 77 mobs. Increase the accuracy suffix by a factor of 1.6 (300 accuracy becomes 460).

Shavronne's wrappings - The recent patch has done a decent job curbing its power as evident by the fact it is worth 34 instead of 50 exalts pre patch though it might just the fact everything else is devaluing relative to exalts.

The metagame has been dominated by the existence of these 3 items : lionseye , shavronne's wrappings, and koam's heart. To change them now would hurt the vast majority of builds and alienate a large portion of the player base - both causal and hardcore. While it might be better for the game's balance in the short term, the backlash would be unprecedented and the community morale if there was ever such a thing would be irrevocably damaged. I can not put into words how passionate I am about this game but I hope I was able to convey how disheartened I would be for these uniques which are really at the heart of the game's lore and spirit to be nerfed this "late" into the game lifespan.

"

I do agree that Lioneye's probably needs a partial nerf, but there are a variety of ways in doing so. I did like the idea suggested that Lioneye can't inflict any status ailments except stun, which albeit it's a nerf, it isn't too big of a nerf since it's more meant to be a physical bow anyway. It'll only nerf the elemental bow users who (rightly so) abuse all the elemental damage auras, Blackgleam, and weapon elemental damage gems. The other idea of improving accuracy is also a great indirect nerf to Lioneye's without actually having to change the item's properties. It's probably better for GGG to figure out a solution to the accuracy problem first to see where Lioneye stands afterwards.

I really like the idea that Lioneye won't be able to do any status ailment effects though since it's nerf, but not a game-breaking nerf. No chance to shock (and others, but shock is the most important) means a lot lower damage which coincides with the resolute technique keystone where you can't crit (lower damage). This nerf also won't completely render an expensive, high-tier item like Lioneye worthless. At the same time, elemental bow users should be using a tri-elemental damage rare bow anyway (or if GGG implements a strong end-game elemental bow in the future, that would work too). The only problem is that the elemental rare bow user's accuracy would be low and have a big loss in DPS... which is why GGG must also address the accuracy issue, once again.

I think you're massively underestimating how much the damage boost from shock is. This would acutally nerf lioneye to the point where nobody would use it anymore. By the time you found one, you would already have a bow that significantly outdamages it with shock. This would not only hurt everybody who has it way more than necessary, but it would also devalue it to the point where they can't get any meaningful amount of their currency back by selling it. It also makes no sense. Uniques are supposed to make sense, so implement the nerf in a way that matches the item.

"

Xendran wrote:

See without doubt, slay without hesitation.

Cannot Fire Additional Projectiles.
Cannot Fork or Chain.

You must aim, you must know EXACTLY where your arrow is going, you must see without doubt. Firing arrows that are out of your aim and out of your sight is not lioneye's style. Spraying bunches of arrows randomly, having them fork and chain in random directions? I doubt this is what lioneye was using his bow for.

No attack speed nerf, due to Slay without hesitation.

"

Xendran wrote:

Spoiler

"

I do agree that Lioneye's probably needs a partial nerf, but there are a variety of ways in doing so. I did like the idea suggested that Lioneye can't inflict any status ailments except stun, which albeit it's a nerf, it isn't too big of a nerf since it's more meant to be a physical bow anyway. It'll only nerf the elemental bow users who (rightly so) abuse all the elemental damage auras, Blackgleam, and weapon elemental damage gems. The other idea of improving accuracy is also a great indirect nerf to Lioneye's without actually having to change the item's properties. It's probably better for GGG to figure out a solution to the accuracy problem first to see where Lioneye stands afterwards.

I really like the idea that Lioneye won't be able to do any status ailment effects though since it's nerf, but not a game-breaking nerf. No chance to shock (and others, but shock is the most important) means a lot lower damage which coincides with the resolute technique keystone where you can't crit (lower damage). This nerf also won't completely render an expensive, high-tier item like Lioneye worthless. At the same time, elemental bow users should be using a tri-elemental damage rare bow anyway (or if GGG implements a strong end-game elemental bow in the future, that would work too). The only problem is that the elemental rare bow user's accuracy would be low and have a big loss in DPS... which is why GGG must also address the accuracy issue, once again.

I think you're massively underestimating how much the damage boost from shock is. This would acutally nerf lioneye to the point where nobody would use it anymore. By the time you found one, you would already have a bow that significantly outdamages it with shock. This would not only hurt everybody who has it way more than necessary, but it would also devalue it to the point where they can't get any meaningful amount of their currency back by selling it. It also makes no sense. Uniques are supposed to make sense, so implement the nerf in a way that matches the item.

"

Xendran wrote:

See without doubt, slay without hesitation.

Cannot Fire Additional Projectiles.
Cannot Fork or Chain.

You must aim, you must know EXACTLY where your arrow is going, you must see without doubt. Firing arrows that are out of your aim and out of your sight is not lioneye's style. Spraying bunches of arrows randomly, having them fork and chain in random directions? I doubt this is what lioneye was using his bow for.

No attack speed nerf, due to Slay without hesitation.

I think that's the point. We're trying to nerf the damage boost from shock stack (but also burn and freeze which are also not trivial forms of status ailments). It's no surprise that LA bow users is so common. LA bow users can still keep doing what they're doing, just get a tri-elemental resist bow like they were supposed to.

The change you suggested will only cause all Lioneye users to switch to using either Rain of Arrows or Split Arrow (not sure if the arrows here are considered "additional projectiles") as their aoe and keep using whatever they want for their single target ability. If we use your change, you do understand that there is literally no nerf to any Rain of Arrows users right (depending on what "additional projectiles" is defined to be, this can also be true of Split Arrow)? Do you agree with that at least?

Edit: I also strongly disagree when you said, "This would acutally nerf lioneye to the point where nobody would use it anymore." A physical bow user can still use Lioneye if they choose. Please understand that in the future, physical bow users will actually be viable like elemental bow users. It seems like a far-fetched and hard concept to grasp, I know, but I am confident that GGG will balance this as they've already taken steps to do so in the previous patch with the increased physical damage nodes and the nerf to elemental damage nodes.

Edit 2: And sorry to sound like a broken record, but making physical bow users viable isn't necessarily that hard to do. They really just need to implement a Ranged Physical Damage gem that also has a more modifier. And possibly a Physical Damage aura (but be careful with this one). Of course there are lots of details and balance issues, etc due to the armor mechanics, but those things just take time and lots of testing.

Currently I'd be really surprised if there's a physical bow build that out-competes the Weapon Elemental Damage gem's 80% MORE damage modifier (Rain of Arrows and Concentrated Effects don't really count as it's the exception, not the rule...).