Why does Lioneye's Glare have no drawback?

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Nephalim wrote:

Nerf lions, nerf koams, nerf shavs, nerf/remove mf, remove curses are the most popular threads whereas the ones pushing for a buff to underused skills and items are far less active.

Oh, you must be in the "buff everything else, don't nerf" camp. It is really easy to just say other people are bandwagoning, I must admit.

To that I give you a quote from Chris:

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Chris wrote:

The "nerfs" in this patch are in response to the rest of the rebalance and so that many builds are simultaneously viable. You can't complain that there are only seven good builds and then complain when we balancing the power level :P

Please note that the argument of "just buff the other skills, never nerf anything" has this cycle:
a) Buff bad skills: now everything is easy.
b) Game is now too easy: give monsters more life.
c) Values would now have all crept up: scale them all down slightly.

After those steps, it's exactly the same as just tweaking the abusive skills in the first place.

From 0.11.0 Patch Notes. He's also reiterated this many times otherwise. It applies to items in this game just as well as it applies to skills and any other lever of balance.

I use a crit archer build. I do not use Lioneye's because the base crit is pathetic. I use this bow:



I do indeed need a lot of accuracy, but this is not so bad. I use these accuracy items:




I also have over 400 dexterity. I have 2 accuracy nodes from the tree. Two. One of witch I would get regardless of needing it or not, since I take the Master Fletcher node. I end up with around 2400 accuracy. This is ~85% hit chance on my sheet. If I use an additional accuracy gem, I hit upwards of 3700 accuracy (90% hit chance on my sheet). It's relatively annoying to have to gear in accuracy, but the results can be pretty insane if you have a base bow with higher dps than Lioneye's and enough accuracy. I am still working on exalting some flat dmg mods on those rings above, but I currently have >= the damage I had when I used a Lioneye's glare and better DPS rings.

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pneuma wrote:

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bvnl wrote:

Hm, i think the title of this thread should be changed:

"People with lionseye VS people without one"

I have lionseye so I suggest we dont change anything.

I see a lot more people with Lioneye's complaining that it's wrong to nerf their item than people with Lioneye's who actually understand game balance.

See also: my Lioneye's.

You cant see the irony in my post and assume that I have no idea about game balance. Ok, whatever.

Do I think lionseye is slightly op? yes. Do I think it has to be fixed? There are more important issues with balance in this game to be fixed. I just cant take it seriously if someone makes a thread complaining about lionseye without mentioning other OP items.

And what exactly you want to nerf on lionseye??.. Attack speed? dmg? the unique mod? or +mana? I already made a suggestion to add double dex requirement on previous page. Removing its unique mode or nerf its dmg would completely destroy this item.

Last thing: being op with best items in endgame is ok. Thats why I never complained about shavronnes or kaoms(kaoms before .11 patch, now its too op), the items I dont have. If you dont like being op and want perfect balance you should play chess.

I've used one. Well, two actually. Anyways, you're saying that lioneye is either better than, or at worst equal to ALL bows. How do you not see a problem with that?

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bvnl wrote:

Do I think it has to be fixed? There are more important issues with balance in this game to be fixed. I just cant take it seriously if someone makes a thread complaining about lionseye without mentioning other OP items.

Every broken thing needs to be fixed. This thread is about one such broken thing. I'll let GGG determine the order, but to see Chris say "they won't fix this" is absurd.

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bvnl wrote:

And what exactly you want to nerf on lionseye??.. Attack speed? dmg? the unique mod? or +mana? I already made a suggestion to add double dex requirement on previous page. Removing its unique mode or nerf its dmg would completely destroy this item.

Nerf its damage. It's still interesting for Cannot Miss.

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bvnl wrote:

If you dont like being op and want perfect balance you should play chess.

Perfect balance is not attainable. Better balance is something to strive for, not something to offhandedly deride.

If you add a drawback it should have to be divine orbed onto old ones or they will stay legacy version. That would be the only fair way since the same treatment was given to +2 silverbranch among other items. (And also as you have for buffs i.e. 50% frenzy duration on darkrays)

Alternative ideas:
1) buff base damage of other bows, that will make other uniques more useful.
2) buff rare mod potential for bows so rolling ones that are better is more plausible.

just make it unable to crit. problem solved.

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pneuma wrote:

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Nephalim wrote:

Nerf lions, nerf koams, nerf shavs, nerf/remove mf, remove curses are the most popular threads whereas the ones pushing for a buff to underused skills and items are far less active.

Oh, you must be in the "buff everything else, don't nerf" camp. It is really easy to just say other people are bandwagoning, I must admit.

To that I give you a quote from Chris:

"

Chris wrote:

The "nerfs" in this patch are in response to the rest of the rebalance and so that many builds are simultaneously viable. You can't complain that there are only seven good builds and then complain when we balancing the power level :P

Please note that the argument of "just buff the other skills, never nerf anything" has this cycle:
a) Buff bad skills: now everything is easy.
b) Game is now too easy: give monsters more life.
c) Values would now have all crept up: scale them all down slightly.

After those steps, it's exactly the same as just tweaking the abusive skills in the first place.

From 0.11.0 Patch Notes. He's also reiterated this many times otherwise. It applies to items in this game just as well as it applies to skills and any other lever of balance.

But what about the reverse situation?

Lets say there are several tier 1 skills(builds) that could be considered OP and tier 2 skills(builds) that could be considered viable but not OP and tier 3 builds that are underused or not popular.

1) spork, fp, ek, discharge
2) sa, la, ele cleave, wandplar
3) searing bond totem, leapslam, EA, iceshot, LS

If we nerf tier 1 builds then the build pool simply gets shuffled around until a new set of tier 1 builds emerge.

1) la, ele cleave, wandplar
2) spork, fp, discharge
3) ek, searing bond totem, leapslam, EA, iceshot, LS

Again were in the same situation were a tiny number of builds dominate the rest. We can keep nerfing(Shuffling) but the game becomes too hard so we have to nerf monster life and or damage values have all crept downwards, buff everything slightly. The difference here is mental perception. Players are more likely to rage quit over their characters and gear being gimped than the content getting more difficult even if the end result is exactly the same - they are losing power while the game is gaining power.

Repeated over and over until the content becomes more difficult because your favorite build got axed - perhaps more than once and we have a similar cycle as quoted. People will always gravitate towards the most powerful builds and some, to what ever kripp is doing at the moment. We will never have a metagame where there are 12 perfectly viable, interesting and balanced builds to pick from. This game simply does not have the depth of mechanics(yet) for so many viable builds to exist at the same time.


With regards to gear I will admit koams does something far beyond the allowable power curve of items (partly due to rare chest pieces only being able to roll a measly 109 life) and shavs for allowing spell casters to triple their dps at no true drawback. These 2 items are what I would call game breaking and meta defining. Lions eye glare is something i would call a slight oversight and primarily a result of the horrendous crafting system.

If there is a change, it must start with koams and shavs and likely a dramatic rebalance of the game's 1 shot kill mechanics followed by the nerfing of LA discharge and spark and then finally if we are not at a good point, nerfs lions eye.

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pneuma wrote:

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bvnl wrote:

Do I think it has to be fixed? There are more important issues with balance in this game to be fixed. I just cant take it seriously if someone makes a thread complaining about lionseye without mentioning other OP items.

Every broken thing needs to be fixed. This thread is about one such broken thing. I'll let GGG determine the order, but to see Chris say "they won't fix this" is absurd.

I just dont see why lionseye is broken

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Agent956 wrote:

I use a crit archer build. I do not use Lioneye's because the base crit is pathetic. I use this bow:

Double your hp amount is broken

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pneuma wrote:

Nerf its damage. It's still interesting for Cannot Miss.

Nerf its dmg and it becomes another lategame lvling item. why would you want to do that.

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Nephalim wrote:

With regards to gear I will admit koams does something far beyond the allowable power curve of items (partly due to rare chest pieces only being able to roll a measly 109 life) and shavs for allowing spell casters to triple their dps at no true drawback. These 2 items are what I would call game breaking and meta defining. Lions eye glare is something i would call a slight oversight and primarily a result of the horrendous crafting system.

Agreed, though its more than just a slight oversight. It eats all other bows. There are very few bows that can outdo it on specific builds, and they are often mirror worthy. See also the guy that posted his mirrored godly rare crit bow (which still isn't that much better due to only 85% accuracy being rolled twice on crits, no mana, and much slower).

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Nephalim wrote:

If there is a change, it must start with koams and shavs and likely a dramatic rebalance of the game's 1 shot kill mechanics followed by the nerfing of LA discharge and spark and then finally if we are not at a good point, nerfs lions eye.

I leave it up to GGG to determine the priority of fixes. I do not think LA is broken in comparison to the other aoe bow skills (RoA, Split, IS), I believe it's just this bow.

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bvnl wrote:

Nerf its dmg and it becomes another lategame lvling item. why would you want to do that.

Nerf it's damage and it will be used on builds that value Cannot Miss, such as those that are far away from accuracy and RT up in the Int section of the tree. Put it on a lower base bow to reduce its damage and now the dex cost isn't insurmountable, which means it can see more Templar/Witch usage, or on a Str-archer that doesn't go all the way over to RT. It's still a very interesting bow, it just doesn't dominate bow choice for players.