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kidshazam wrote:
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Anomandaris wrote:
unless you are totally changing attributes in a big way, in which case what is wrong with rerolling?
Let's say I try a Templar build, and it doesn't work at all.
All right, I'll give it a shot and reroll. Play through all that low level content again, using only a few skills and crappy equipment, I'm not enjoying myself as much as I was before I had to reroll, but I'm working through it so I can get to the fun part again.
Oh. Shit. This build just plain isn't any fun. I guess I could reroll again?
Once again do the low level thing. Fight through all this content I have seen several times now. Getting really sick of this. Asking myself why I'm bothering, but eventually get back to where I was.
Wow. Really? This build just doesn't work at all because of gimped mechanics. No, I'm not rerolling again. I might, MIGHT try another class, if this Templar is the first one I've tried, otherwise I'm not going to play anymore. I'm going to find a game that is consistently enjoyable, where I don't hit a brick wall due to game design.
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People don't just stop playing a game for something else every time they find a good item for a different build/class or make a build mistake, regardless of respecs. To imply that quitting to play a different game is in any way a viable alternative to transitioning your build to a different weapon in PoE is absurd.
No, it isn't. If "transitioning" was in any way enjoyable, that statement would hold truth, but it's nothing but work. I can either do work to enjoy myself, or I can turn on another game and immediately enjoy myself.
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kodr wrote:
You get fun when you play the game and you get hooked, or you don't and you move on.
Yes. Obviously. I'm not seeing how the current availability of respecs or the implications of what Chris said have any direct impact on that...
Constantly having to reroll negatively impacts the enjoyment and entertainment derived from the game. I'm not sure how else this can be stated.
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Regarding not being able to experiment, I simply cannot agree with that. The game is very tolerant of experimental builds, and regarding needing to restart the same character from scratch, you are flat-out wrong. It is near impossible to break a character so badly as to make it unplayable unless you are specifically trying to do so
You are absolutely insane. I've had to reroll several characters after discovering that the builds I was trying were not working due to the incredibly unclear gameplay mechanics. The only reason I have characters that are actually enjoyable to play is because I have scoured the forums looking for build information and general information on mechanics.
In that time I amassed very little wealth, so if I had wanted to start over I would have needed to spend hours and hours farming for orbs or something to trade for. Hours and hours of time using a bad or plain unenjoyable build, of work, to start over.
And even then, I would have to utilize the player run economy to find enough regret orbs, which means I have to stand around in town spamming trade messages, likely having to deal with multiple people because regret orbs are so rare, and then stand a good chance at getting scammed out of my wealth
This is completely unacceptable to me as a gamer, and it is unacceptable to me as a person with limited time to play.
1) The game was meant for hardcore gamers in the first place. If you don't do your research first, you get burned. It's simple as that. It's plain and clear if you read the WEBSITE, that this isn't a game designed for casual playing. If you're not willing to dedicate the time, then don't play this game. The design philosophy is not centered around casual gamers.
2) Respecs is very casual, and it would ruin PvP greatly. The reason why games like WoW etc. have bad PvP is partially due to the fact that the respec option exists, allowing players to completely change their build on the fly to the new flavor of the month.
3) Alot of inefficient/silly builds are more than capable of soloing chaos quite effectively. You may have to work a little harder, but you also learn how to utilize different skills / learn different ways to play the game, therefore making you an overall better player.
4) Plenty of games do not have a respec option and were plenty successful. Diablo was one of them, and Dark Souls is another. Heck, even right now in Diablo 2, you have to run 3 Hell Bosses to get the respec option, and not all characters are capable of running WSK2/Baal legitimately.
Last edited by allbusiness#6050 on Feb 23, 2012, 1:36:29 PM
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Posted byallbusiness#6050on Feb 23, 2012, 1:35:17 PM
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ManiaCCC wrote:
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Mr_Cee wrote:
They cant offer a solution that pleases respec demanders, and take care of the consequences they wish to avoid at the same time.
If the given options dont seem acceptable to someone, just take your consequences from it.
oh, c'mon...it's not that hard. We already have two modes in the game.. another one wont hurt anyone.
And we will get offered a third one, as stated in the http://www.pathofexile.com/leagues/ information page:
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Game Modes
Leagues are able to apply a different set of game rules to their players. For example, increased monster difficulty, world PvP, permadeath or various "Ironman" rules.
There can you set the diff as you like - if this is not what you want, then I assume you wont get it there...
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ManiaCCC wrote:
but anyway.. from my point of view.. "other side" are trying to dictate how others should have fun..
I dictate nothing. I explain how it is meant and going to be set, what you can expect and what not. A game which dont let mistakes happen, which dont demand drawbacks and consequences on decision, is just simply boring, really fast even for casuals.
invited by timer @ 10.12.2011
--
deutsche Community: www.exiled.eu & ts.exiled.eu
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Posted byMr_Cee#0334on Feb 23, 2012, 2:36:14 PM
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kidshazam wrote:
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Anomandaris wrote:
unless you are totally changing attributes in a big way, in which case what is wrong with rerolling?
Let's say I try a Templar build, and it doesn't work at all.
All right, I'll give it a shot and reroll. Play through all that low level content again, using only a few skills and crappy equipment, I'm not enjoying myself as much as I was before I had to reroll, but I'm working through it so I can get to the fun part again.
Oh. Shit. This build just plain isn't any fun. I guess I could reroll again?
Once again do the low level thing. Fight through all this content I have seen several times now. Getting really sick of this. Asking myself why I'm bothering, but eventually get back to where I was.
Wow. Really? This build just doesn't work at all because of gimped mechanics. No, I'm not rerolling again. I might, MIGHT try another class, if this Templar is the first one I've tried, otherwise I'm not going to play anymore. I'm going to find a game that is consistently enjoyable, where I don't hit a brick wall due to game design.
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People don't just stop playing a game for something else every time they find a good item for a different build/class or make a build mistake, regardless of respecs. To imply that quitting to play a different game is in any way a viable alternative to transitioning your build to a different weapon in PoE is absurd.
No, it isn't. If "transitioning" was in any way enjoyable, that statement would hold truth, but it's nothing but work. I can either do work to enjoy myself, or I can turn on another game and immediately enjoy myself.
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kodr wrote:
You get fun when you play the game and you get hooked, or you don't and you move on.
Yes. Obviously. I'm not seeing how the current availability of respecs or the implications of what Chris said have any direct impact on that...
Constantly having to reroll negatively impacts the enjoyment and entertainment derived from the game. I'm not sure how else this can be stated.
"
Regarding not being able to experiment, I simply cannot agree with that. The game is very tolerant of experimental builds, and regarding needing to restart the same character from scratch, you are flat-out wrong. It is near impossible to break a character so badly as to make it unplayable unless you are specifically trying to do so
You are absolutely insane. I've had to reroll several characters after discovering that the builds I was trying were not working due to the incredibly unclear gameplay mechanics. The only reason I have characters that are actually enjoyable to play is because I have scoured the forums looking for build information and general information on mechanics.
In that time I amassed very little wealth, so if I had wanted to start over I would have needed to spend hours and hours farming for orbs or something to trade for. Hours and hours of time using a bad or plain unenjoyable build, of work, to start over.
And even then, I would have to utilize the player run economy to find enough regret orbs, which means I have to stand around in town spamming trade messages, likely having to deal with multiple people because regret orbs are so rare, and then stand a good chance at getting scammed out of my wealth
This is completely unacceptable to me as a gamer, and it is unacceptable to me as a person with limited time to play.
Could you link all those failed builds you made?
I simply can't imagine how you could screw up your build so much that 8 respec points can't make it into a decent build, unless you have zero common sense or try to make a useless build on purpose.
My first character was a duelist, I didn't do any reading before and just picked talents I thought would work well. I have changed a couple of things since then with the free respec points but his build is still mostly the same and capable of soloing chaos very easily.
I'm very curious what those unclear game mechanics are that tricked you into making a build that's simply unplayable and can't be fixed.
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Posted byFwib#1607on Feb 23, 2012, 2:47:59 PM
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kidshazam wrote:
Let's say I try a Templar build, and it doesn't work at all.
All right, I'll give it a shot and reroll. Play through all that low level content again, using only a few skills and crappy equipment, I'm not enjoying myself as much as I was before I had to reroll, but I'm working through it so I can get to the fun part again.
Oh. Shit. This build just plain isn't any fun. I guess I could reroll again?
Once again do the low level thing. Fight through all this content I have seen several times now. Getting really sick of this. Asking myself why I'm bothering, but eventually get back to where I was.
Wow. Really? This build just doesn't work at all because of gimped mechanics. No, I'm not rerolling again. I might, MIGHT try another class, if this Templar is the first one I've tried, otherwise I'm not going to play anymore. I'm going to find a game that is consistently enjoyable, where I don't hit a brick wall due to game design.
This has already been nailed a couple of times, I can't be bothered explaining how this is madness. See the bottom.
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kidshazam wrote:
No, it isn't. If "transitioning" was in any way enjoyable, that statement would hold truth, but it's nothing but work. I can either do work to enjoy myself, or I can turn on another game and immediately enjoy myself.
Transitioning amounts to playing the game with a non-optimal build. That is normal, because at best most builds are non-optimal, and at worst all of them are. As has been said, terrible builds can solo Chaos. I didn't plan my first two builds, and did no research on the mechanics whatsoever. They were playable. WTH do you want, anyway? The perfect build? The ability to change your build entirely every time you see a new weapon? When are you deciding that you hate your builds or that they don't work? What are you asking for that we don't have right now? You get 8 respec points as you progress, and trading for a massive pile of regret orbs is nowhere near as hard as you make out. Not to mention making a dysfunctional build is really hard without trying to do so.
If you don't like playing the game, then yes, by all means leave.
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kidshazam wrote:
Constantly having to reroll negatively impacts the enjoyment and entertainment derived from the game. I'm not sure how else this can be stated.
You don't constantly have to reroll, though. Respecs are an option, and builds are incredibly tolerant. WTH.
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kidshazam wrote:
You are absolutely insane. I've had to reroll several characters after discovering that the builds I was trying were not working due to the incredibly unclear gameplay mechanics. The only reason I have characters that are actually enjoyable to play is because I have scoured the forums looking for build information and general information on mechanics.
See below. What are these treacherous incredibly unclear mechanics? We have respecs. I'm certainly not suggesting they be removed. They're just not trivially available, because that would be abusable, although some would argue that they're too easy to get late game.
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kidshazam wrote:
And even then, I would have to utilize the player run economy to find enough regret orbs, which means I have to stand around in town spamming trade messages, likely having to deal with multiple people because regret orbs are so rare, and then stand a good chance at getting scammed out of my wealth
Yeah, player-to-player trade sucks right now. But it won't stay that way.
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Fwib wrote:
Could you link all those failed builds you made?
I simply can't imagine how you could screw up your build so much that 8 respec points can't make it into a decent build, unless you have zero common sense or try to make a useless build on purpose.
My first character was a duelist, I didn't do any reading before and just picked talents I thought would work well. I have changed a couple of things since then with the free respec points but his build is still mostly the same and capable of soloing chaos very easily.
I'm very curious what those unclear game mechanics are that tricked you into making a build that's simply unplayable and can't be fixed.
This * 1000.
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allbusiness wrote:
2) Respecs is very casual, and it would ruin PvP greatly. The reason why games like WoW etc. have bad PvP is partially due to the fact that the respec option exists, allowing players to completely change their build on the fly to the new flavor of the month.
Casualness aside (not an issue I want to discuss), I agree.
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allbusiness wrote:
3) Alot of inefficient/silly builds are more than capable of soloing chaos quite effectively. You may have to work a little harder, but you also learn how to utilize different skills / learn different ways to play the game, therefore making you an overall better player.
4) Plenty of games do not have a respec option and were plenty successful. Diablo was one of them, and Dark Souls is another. Heck, even right now in Diablo 2, you have to run 3 Hell Bosses to get the respec option, and not all characters are capable of running WSK2/Baal legitimately.
This * 1000.
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Posted byAnomandaris#4901on Feb 23, 2012, 4:38:21 PM
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Fwib wrote:
Could you link all those failed builds you made?
I simply can't imagine how you could screw up your build so much that 8 respec points can't make it into a decent build, unless you have zero common sense or try to make a useless build on purpose.
heh, if that's what the game is trying to tell me, like a 13 years old kid "hey you suck, uninstall!!!", that's awesome :)
PoE forums ignore list script:
http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/162657
0.4: added "ignore" button. ignore list is now saved locally.
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Posted bykodr#0209on Feb 23, 2012, 5:06:56 PM
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kodr wrote:
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Fwib wrote:
Could you link all those failed builds you made?
I simply can't imagine how you could screw up your build so much that 8 respec points can't make it into a decent build, unless you have zero common sense or try to make a useless build on purpose.
heh, if that's what the game is trying to tell me, like a 13 years old kid "hey you suck, uninstall!!!", that's awesome :)
You're missing his point. It's really hard to come up with a build that doesn't work unless you're doing it on purpose.
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Posted byAnomandaris#4901on Feb 23, 2012, 6:29:44 PM
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Anomandaris wrote:
You're missing his point. It's really hard to come up with a build that doesn't work unless you're doing it on purpose.
Not everyone is satisfied with a build that "works".
Min/max is the name of the game for alot of people. Unclear mechanics and difficulty to experiment makes that really cumbersome.
Last edited by Sickness#1007 on Feb 23, 2012, 7:01:46 PM
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Posted bySickness#1007on Feb 23, 2012, 6:39:31 PM
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Sickness wrote:
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Anomandaris wrote:
You're missing his point. It's really hard to come up with a build that doesn't work unless you're doing it on purpose.
And you and he are missing kidshazam's point.
Not everyone is satisfied with a build that "works".
Min/max is the name of the game for alot of people. Unclear mechanics and difficulty to experiment makes that really cumbersome.
He was talking about his build not working at all and being forced to reroll. He didn't say his build was working well but he rerolled anyway because he believed it was not "perfect".
I agree that min/max is the name of the game, but should that mean that maxing your character should be easy?
I understand that people want to build the perfect character, but it should take a lot of work to get there. This means you shouldn't expect your very first character to be perfect, and if you want it to be perfect anyway, you should be willing to spend a fair amount of time farming regret orbs to get there.
There's nothing wrong with building a couple of characters that work well but aren't perfect, it doesn't mean that time is wasted because you'll gain plenty of currency items and knowledge that will help you with your next charcter.
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Posted byFwib#1607on Feb 23, 2012, 6:54:57 PM
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Fwib wrote:
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Sickness wrote:
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Anomandaris wrote:
You're missing his point. It's really hard to come up with a build that doesn't work unless you're doing it on purpose.
And you and he are missing kidshazam's point.
Not everyone is satisfied with a build that "works".
Min/max is the name of the game for alot of people. Unclear mechanics and difficulty to experiment makes that really cumbersome.
He was talking about his build not working at all and being forced to reroll. He didn't say his build was working well but he rerolled anyway because he believed it was not "perfect".
Oh. nevermind then. My bad.
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Fwib wrote:
I agree that min/max is the name of the game, but should that mean that maxing your character should be easy?
No. The options are not "the current way" or "the easy way".
There is a whole lot inbetween.
The hardest part of maxing your character comes from gear anyways.
Last edited by Sickness#1007 on Feb 23, 2012, 7:05:21 PM
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Posted bySickness#1007on Feb 23, 2012, 7:01:29 PM
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I find it incredibly ironic that the small number of (VERY loud) voices who seem to be the game's biggest fans - the "uber hardcore" seem to want nothing more than for the game to fail miserably.
It's simple enough. Create a league variant that keeps the existing respec rules, and you guys can all play in the uber-hardcore league. And then, everything else gets relaxed respec rules, because FOR THIS GAME TO SUCCEED, GGG HAS TO BE ABLE TO MAKE MONEY. Unless the hundred or so uber-hardcore people are prepared to spend $1000 a month on microtransactions... in which case, by all means, GGG should cater to them.
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Posted bysimnel#1762on Feb 23, 2012, 7:06:33 PM
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