Snapshotting

lol... no.

and you seem to have entirely omitted the context. the context was a summoner with 5 spectres... hence, the fractions of 5. hence, someone claiming that 5/5 = 500%. hence, the screenshot of the tooltip i posted.

obviously, 1/1 would be 100%. it's not the same context, though.

1/1 wouldn't be summoners - it would be ANYONE with a raise spectre gem.

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Fruz wrote:

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robmafia wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

Right ... I screwed up .... lawl.

yes, you thought that "skill" meant "support."

Time for memes I guess

Spoiler

I'm out, good luck for everyone on talking to this guy.

Told you so. Of course, he thought I was talking to him in my original post:

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Archwizard wrote:

I suggest to all to stop letting robmafia dominate this thread. He's obviously not understanding/accepting the information he's been repeatedly provided. Mark has offered to discuss the issue in greater depth in private for the express purpose of letting this thread be about other people's questions / comments regarding the OP. Last I knew, robmafia has refused Mark's offer in favor of rabblerousing here. That in and of itself should send a pretty loud and clear message as to what robmafia's intent and goals are.

I look forward to potentially reading more between Mark and the community on this (long overdue) change.

When I am clearly talking to everyone that insists on responding to him. I beg people, stop replying to him. That was page 44, it's now 48, same crap.

RM: It works like X.
Almost Everyone Else: No, it doesn't.
RM: Yes it does.
AEE: No.

Etc.

Please, for the love of god, let this thread move on.

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Archwizard wrote:

he thought I was talking to him in my original post

lolz. of course, i didn't. that doesn't mean i couldn't respond... and point out the hypocrisy your post contained. i didn't even bother quoting it or addressing YOU. until now.

same as the above - it's logic 101. if you don't want me to RESPOND, don't give me material to respond to. when you make me the subject matter... you do just the opposite. i'm awesome, why wouldn't i want to talk about me? hahaha

good job at adding 2 more posts to the subject matter you claim to want to move on from, though. good job!

6L item RZ-RS-X-X-X-X...GGG name me 4x gems that will benefit both zombie/spec in this scenario. Unless you want summoners to use multiple items for their damage dealing skills, which other specs all achieve in one 6L item.

MAKE LOTS MORE GEMS...I mean a lot more then I think most summoners would be pretty happy. If you have a plethora of GOOD options for those 4 links it will make summoners retain diversity. Ohhh trash is dead let's switch out that DPS gem for this nice min life on the boss and have it dynamically switch my minion HP...now that's not so bad. MOOORE non-suck gem options that work for zombie AND spectre simultaneously.

You currently have min life, min damage. You need Minion Cast/Attack speed BOTH on the same gem. You need like a freaking minion multistrike, that will make zombies AND spectre repeat their attacks multiple times. Make some cool junk be creative.

I see how diversifying spectres could make for a particularly strong and useful team, but I honestly never even considering such a thing because it isn't intuitive. It doesn't make sense that I should change out my support gems between each spectre but keep the benefit of the old gems. That is a large part of what fixing snapshotting is about.

I know this argument was dismissed earlier, but I will try again. Let's compare Raise Spectre to Dual Strike. To simplify things, let's say I'm putting the gem in a one handed weapon with only three sockets. If I want my Dual Strike to hit a large area, I need Melee Splash and Increased Area of Effect. If I want my Dual Strike to hit really fast, I need Multistrike and Faster Attacks. If I want my Dual Strike to focus on elemental damage, maybe I'd put on Added Fire and Weapon Elemental Damage.

I can switch out the gems to match the situation I need at the moment, but I can't have Dual Strike do each of those things at any given time without giving up the other options. I can't use the AoE version on a group until only the Rare is left, then switch to the fast attack version without switching gems or setting up both version in separate pieces of equipment(possibly on a weapon switch, so weapon switching could be useful.)

Same idea applies to Spectres. I can have an elemental damage spectre, a fast attack melee spectre, and a large AoE spectre, but I can't have all of them at the same time unless I have multiple gems in different pieces of equipment, just like any other skill in the game.

I understand that it hinders diversity unless you use generic gems. I understand that you don't like the change. I know a lot of people aren't going to like these changes because they're currently crazy powerful with broken builds. But GGG's goal is to create a consistent and logical system across all skills, and that's what this change will be doing.

Simply put, if the investment for five spectres isn't worth it without having specialized spectres, then don't invest in five spectres. You can pick up other gear/passives that provide what you're looking for. The loss of snapshotting is going to change the entire metagame, and we will all need to adapt, including GGG for skill balance.

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crinaya wrote:

I understand that it hinders diversity unless you use generic gems. I understand that you don't like the change. I know a lot of people aren't going to like these changes because they're currently crazy powerful with broken builds. But GGG's goal is to create a consistent and logical system across all skills, and that's what this change will be doing.

Simply put, if the investment for five spectres isn't worth it without having specialized spectres, then don't invest in five spectres. You can pick up other gear/passives that provide what you're looking for. The loss of snapshotting is going to change the entire metagame, and we will all need to adapt, including GGG for skill balance.

Wise words,
I completely agree with you

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crinaya wrote:

Same idea applies to Spectres. I can have an elemental damage spectre, a fast attack melee spectre, and a large AoE spectre, but I can't have all of them at the same time unless I have multiple gems in different pieces of equipment, just like any other skill in the game.

(this is basically a recap of the last 15 pages)

i/we all get that. the issue is that spectres AREN'T like other skills in the game, and the ability to have them with diversified supports doesn't make them any more powerful, they're not GAINING anything - unlike what you described above and the other forms of snapshotting.

a dual strike with 5 links is a dual strike with 5 links and should be a dual strike with 5 links.

it's the same concept with spectres. there's no reason to have spectres with 5 links... and only using 4 or less of the links. most of the support gems only apply to a minority of spectre types, and therein lies the issue.

GGG's stated solution to use multiple links of items to run multiple copies of RS just isn't viable. i'm still unsure if the suggestion was serious (and they're THAT out of touch) or just trolling.

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winniethewhor wrote:

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Nemacyst wrote:

So if trap and mine DMG no longer apply simultaneously why are they grouped together on the skills tree. Its almost like this exploit was meant to be exploited. You can't tell me there was a lack of foresight to see this.This should have been addressed before these passives came into existence.

I imagine the original intention was simply thematic and utilitarian. Mines and traps traps are fundamentally similar (given that a mine literally a kind of trap) and there's not that much space they can put new stuff on the skill tree without really remapping an area. Remember, the skill tree still needs to be legible, even though it's complex.

EDIT:

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oBLACKIECHANo wrote:

with no damage buff at all it 100% NEEDS the base AoE radius to be increased enough to counter the loss of carcass jack

Or you could just wear carcass jack.

That might be OK for most people, I could get 8k life with a carcass jack, but I would want to be wearing kaoms, or a much better rare chest at the very least. They wanted to fix snapshotting so people didn't have to mess about with unique's to make things work, and RF barely works without carcass jack, you was pretty much forced to use it, so after fixing it you shouldn't have to use it anymore.

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robmafia wrote:

i/we all get that. the issue is that spectres AREN'T like other skills in the game, and the ability to have them with diversified supports doesn't make them any more powerful, they're not GAINING anything - unlike what you described above and the other forms of snapshotting.

If diversified supports aren't any more powerful, why are you still fighting for snapshotting? Probably since you are gaining something, which is the use of gems that you don't have equipped.

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robmafia wrote:

GGG's stated solution to use multiple links of items to run multiple copies of RS just isn't viable. i'm still unsure if the suggestion was serious (and they're THAT out of touch) or just trolling.

I'm sure they are quite serious, since that's how every other skill works.

I'm personally hoping for a buff to the Minion support gems so that they become more viable to use as compared to always using specialist supports that don't apply across the board.

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crinaya wrote:

If diversified supports aren't any more powerful, why are you still fighting for snapshotting? Probably since you are gaining something, which is the use of gems that you don't have equipped.

well, for the millionth time (no offense, i can't blame you for not reading all 48 pages. haha) - FUN. it's more fun to play with different spectres and see different effects than it is to play with 3-5 of the same spectre. using the same spectre is (obviously) monotonous, and i find it to make summoners pretty boring.

when i mix it up, it's way nicer to play with/watch, even when using far less than optimal spectre types/groups.

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crinaya wrote:

I'm sure they are quite serious, since that's how every other skill works.

no, i meant that i'm not sure if their suggestion/advice was serious or trolling - because it wasn't viable.

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crinaya wrote:

I'm personally hoping for a buff to the Minion support gems so that they become more viable to use as compared to always using specialist supports that don't apply across the board.

support gems could definitely use some reworking (minion damage is only worthwhile for ranged/casters, minion speed is useless, minion resistances is negligible/made moot by purity, etc), but i don't like the idea of more homogenization with these, either. more diversity = more fun, for the most part.