XP penalty and likely 1 portal is NOT going anywhere

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MEITTI#3999 wrote:

You learned how to get your Runes back in Elden Ring with Torrent, so you don't lose runes in Elden Ring if you play good. If you play good in PoE 2 you don't die at all. Hardcore wouldn't exist at all if the game would be full of unfair oneshots. Just like in Elden Ring you just need to git gud.

Thank you very much, you've just enlighted my day. Now that I know I must "git gud", I'll surely improve myself, perhaps buy some hundreds of divines and get awesome gear, so I will become invincible and put myself in the Olympus of all POE elitists.

I'm joking, of course. The fact is that I don't stand people saying "git good" to other people.
Let players play and have fun.
I'm at level 91 and I'm having fun, otherwise I woudn't play, but one portal and xp loss are two mechanics that put a strain on my desire to play. In POE1 I stopped playing more than once due to xp loss.

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artxev#6334 wrote:

Thank you very much, you've just enlighted my day. Now that I know I must "git gud", I'll surely improve myself, perhaps buy some hundreds of divines and get awesome gear, so I will become invincible and put myself in the Olympus of all POE elitists.

I'm joking, of course. The fact is that I don't stand people saying "git good" to other people.
Let players play and have fun.
I'm at level 91 and I'm having fun, otherwise I woudn't play, but one portal and xp loss are two mechanics that put a strain on my desire to play. In POE1 I stopped playing more than once due to xp loss.

Sure, 'git gud' is a pithy internet meme.

However, contrast to the opposing view often expressed in this thread by people who decry literally any penalties or costs for failure. I.e. "it is LITERALLY NEVER MY FAULT when I die, it is ALWAYS the game hitting me with a total bullshit unavoidable unbeatable instant oneshot death from offscreen from a monster I haven't even seen yet, therefore it is unfair to punish me for events completely and totally beyond my control!"

Ahem: fuck that noise forever. Yeah, sometimes the stars align and all decide to look at you disapprovingly and the game ganks you in a way you really couldn't do much about. I'm staring at you, Rat Tornado rituals in tiny-ass maps.

HOWEVER. Those instances are vanishingly rare if you're geared remotely appropriately for the content you're doing, and are vastly, enormously, and uncontestably outweighed by "I played like a goober and got what was coming to me" deaths.

"Git gud" is the rallying cry of players trying to tell folks like Cap Brumblez that no, the game is not "cheating", the game is not "unbeatable", the game is not "instagibbing me out of nowhere." The game is just a game. It has no specific animus towards you-the-player. "Git gud" is aplea to acknowledge that when you die, it is your own damned bloody fault and the solution is not to rage against the uncaring heavens and demand that all forms of penalty, cost or failure be stripped from the game, but to try and improve your play. or your gear. Or whatever you can manage to improve.

Or? Accept that you've hit the limit of what you can accomplish with your current abilities and move on until you feel you've found a way to improve.

The penalty is needed, if getting rewards based on your choices is not for you then being human is a real struggle, if challenges are not "fun" then once again being a semi-developed human is hard.

If "fun" is brainless killing monsters and being way op to the enemies without penalties then we can safely state that someone has become a full-time veggie.

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artxev#6334 wrote:

I'm joking, of course. The fact is that I don't stand people saying "git good" to other people.
Let players play and have fun.

And there it is again, 8)"Well its just not FUN", predictable result when "Games should not punish me"-people run out of arguments. Thanks for proving me that you have no valid arguments.

Also I was not the one who used Elden Ring as an argument for making PoE 2 easier, you were. You Got Gud in Elden Ring, stopped whining and learned to play that game so that you don't lose all your runes on death. But for some reason you refuse to do the same in PoE 2.

Best case scenario GGG does what Fromsoft did and does not care about your feelings on the issue and will just ignore your pleas to casualize the game at the expense of its quality.

How many people quit playing after death, for a couple of hours, for the night or longer? I've done it myself and seen it happen many times. Death should have negative consequences but 10% at high levels is just too much. Make it 5% or take it out completely. The game is hard enough as it is especially with the low chance of getting end game gear dropping for your character and the economy spiraling out of control.

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MEITTI#3999 wrote:

Best case scenario GGG does what Fromsoft did and does not care about your feelings on the issue and will just ignore your pleas to casualize the game at the expense of its quality.

Nice to see someone so clueless about Elden Ring and Fromsoftware... after launch the game had some balancing to overall difficulty.

Radahn was nerfed.
Shield Counter hit box was extended.
Godskin Duo IA was softned.
DLC was overall nerfed.
Damage scaling and damage reduction was buffed per Skadutree fragments.
Consort Radahn fight nerfed as well.

Fromsoft listen to everyone and makes the game more and more casual.

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Fhrek#4437 wrote:

"

MEITTI#3999 wrote:

Best case scenario GGG does what Fromsoft did and does not care about your feelings on the issue and will just ignore your pleas to casualize the game at the expense of its quality.

Nice to see someone so clueless about Elden Ring and Fromsoftware... after launch the game had some balancing to overall difficulty.

Radahn was nerfed.
Shield Counter hit box was extended.
Godskin Duo IA was softned.
DLC was overall nerfed.
Damage scaling and damage reduction was buffed per Skadutree fragments.
Consort Radahn fight nerfed as well.

Fromsoft listen to everyone and makes the game more and more casual.

Have you read recent PoE2 Patch note ??

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1453R#7804 wrote:

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CPTBRUMBL3Z#3146 wrote:

Yeah, none of them seem to want to. It's depressing how few people are willing to argue in good faith in basically any forum like this.

The phrase "you first" comes to mind. But sure. Let me try.

Quite fair, so hoping for the best here.

"

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CPTBRUMBL3Z#3146 wrote:

None of them have addressed any of my actual points, such as how it significantly risks negative feedback loops,

"Negative feedback loops" being losing maps, thus not replenishing maps, and being stuck doing lower-level content?

This is working as designed. The entire point of the mapping/waystone system in Path of Exile - 1 or 2 - is to get people to do the content they're ready for instead of endlessly smashing their faces against content they're not ready for because stupid fucking Streamer Memers have convinced them that only people doing T17 nine-mod Ultra Juiced Pinnacle Endgame Content are "real" PoE1 players and anyone doing anything other than that is a pointless loser who should uninstall forever.

Grinding Gear saw this problem in early builds of POE1, people smashing into endgame content they had absolutely no hope of clearing simply because they had access to that content and saw no point in doing anything else. They created maps specifically to make this content have a financial cost to run, and provide counter-incentive to get people to run what they were prepared to run rather than just ruining their own experience by being streamer-following lemmings.

Your first point strikes me as misrepresenting the reason for most complaints. I sincerely doubt most players watch many if any streamers, so some "memer" saying T17 super juice is the "real" endgame strikes me as impacting a minority. Myself, I purposefully run blue maps (in part because Warrior/Life&Armor is in a super shitty place survivability wise) because any +damage mods are waaaaaay too damn risky given my armor instantly turns into tissue paper and it isn't like 78% ele resist is helping much, either, with how high damage starts to spike. I imagine most players are trying to play the map tiers and juice them in ways they feel like they can clear reliably. If you make it to end game, you're likely going to know enough about the game itself to know your character and build's limitations.

Punitive one-attempt is a serious detriment to map sustain health. The significant risk of a negative feedback loop is probably the number one reason to be less punitive because anyone can run into a sustain drought at any moment. When you get bad luck and die from a couple bullshit moments and now you've lost your sustain, that makes it feel even worse to lose not just the map but also its mechs and any loot on the ground. I've had plenty of times where a dozen proper tier maps will not drop a single sustainable map, all crap I did 20 levels and 10 gear upgrades ago. Nothing is fun or challenging about that. Another problem this can cause is players then may feel compelled to take risks they cannot take because better maps = better drops, further exacerbating the negative feedback loop. I know I've done the same. Sometimes, I made it through. Sometimes, it was worth it, because I regained sustain or found a nice drop. Others, it just made everything worse. I can accept it was still my choice, but the game is now punishing me for its bad balance and RNG.

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CPTBRUMBL3Z#3146 wrote:

how softcore league should not be punitive by its intended design (especially given PoE1's approach to Standard),

By that "logic", all maps should have unlimited attempts, there should be no experience penalty, and a player should be given an ironclad guarantee of completely clearing every single map they open. This is absolutely terrible game design, at least for this style of game. For success to be meaningful, failure needs to be possible. The problem, and why a lot of people are of the belief that the "ONE DEATH IS HORRIBLE!" people are arguing in bad faith, is that your side of the argument will not tolerate ANY cost for failure. If you lose ANYTHING by failing, it's too punitive and needs to be changed. At this point, why bother playing? if success is guanarteed, then just assume you'd succeed if you play and go do something more worthy of your time.

Overcoming adversity and pushing further than you've been able to before, or further than you usually can, is a primary reason many players choose to play difficult games. Eliminating the difficulty entirely ruins this, and would make the game unplayable for the people that are looking for this challenge.

Ok, I have to be blunt here, this is a grossly dishonest take on my argument specifically as well as on the position of most anti-one-attempters as far as I have seen. It is pure strawman. I don't think ANYONE is asking for unlimited attempts, just bringing back 6. I sincerely doubt any sincere interlocutor on death punishment mechanics just wants to steamroll without thinking or considering their build while expecting to clear some 800% magic find super juice map if they can get three tapped by most white mobs. There is plenty of reason for players to cry foul at death mechanics, anyway, given how out of whack this and PoE1's balance is. I still remember my last PoE1 league where a ruby flask plus something like 86% fire resist and nearly 6k life and some fire/physical defense conversion was still able to one shot me and it was a no-tell nothing of an attack with zero hope to avoid it. Same shit happens in PoE2 and it's even harder to push resists and life in this game. There is nothing teachable about moments like that where the game's damage scaling takes a toilet clogging shit when you are otherwise clearing the content without significant trouble. The balance state of the game only exacerbates complaints about the current state of death mechanics. I doubt GGG will ever really get the balance figured out in a less spikey and exponential way, so the least they can do is make death less punitive.

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CPTBRUMBL3Z#3146 wrote:

or that one-attempt is far more likely to promote screen nuking metabuilds that can get away with worse gear at less risk (and thus have the positive feedback loop of clearing harder content faster and getting upgrades and tradables faster given fewer deaths),

"Screen nuking metabuilds" will always be favored over marginal builds that take twenty times longer to clear the content and have a dramatically higher risk of death, no matter how punishing or not death is. Streamer Groupies don't care about engaging with the game, they just want to maximize rewards per instance or currency per hour. You can't encourage people to play bad builds over good builds by making it less punishing to play bad builds. All that does is lower the cost of failure, and since we have established that ANY cost for failure is too high for the people constantly assmad over "ONE PORTAL BAD!", it really doesn't matter.

What you are actually asking for is for "screen nuking metabuilds" to have no advantages over terribad marginal builds that can't accomplish much of anything, and that is simply not how a buildcraft game works. Folks who make this complaint hate that "build followers" do better than they do by letting someone else do their build thinking for them, and they want Build Followers to get nerfed so Original Build folks always do better by default. Here's the thing - that's not possible. Nor SHOULD it be. There is nothing wrong with seeing an awesome idea on the Internet and deciding to try it yourself because it looks like loads of fun.

Screen nukers only further prove the point that one-attempt with exp loss is far too punitive. Balance problems aside, clearly intended to-be-viable builds are struggling unnecessarily because of many issues, that only are made worse by the punitive death mechanic. Not everyone wants to play screen nuker and are fine not having as much clear speed. Others just won't like the playstyle. Literally NOTHING about screen nukers are the problem here, either, just a symptom when they grow even more popular due to being less effort & risk for better rewards. I doubt anyone outside of a noisy minority is asking they be nerfed just to make less powerful or higher effort builds/classes feel better because it does nothing to improve their shortcomings. Furthermore, meta builds still have to deal with the exact same punitive death mechanics, and just because they are screen nukers doesn't mean they magically never die. I've never followed a single build guide and have had plenty fail and plenty others succeed. My Rolling Slam feels amazing overall and has great TTK on bosses in T15. But, that is beside the point of the thread and the complaints about punitive death mechanics. "Worse" builds, even if generally viable in their appropriate map tier for their gear power, do not somehow deserve to die more, and not being a safe, screen-nuking meta build does not somehow mean they deserve the punitive death mechanics more, either.

Please do make an effort to not put words into my mouth or anyone else's. I have never, whatsoever, asked for meta builds to be "less" effective. For the record, I'm a "buff first, nerf maybe" kinda philosophy, so short of extreme situations I'd far sooner see less performing builds/classes get buffs than meta builds get nerfs. But, again, none of that is the topic at hand.

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CPTBRUMBL3Z#3146 wrote:

or that no one is going to somehow ignore defenses just because 6 portals lets them have more attempts given players will still want to level up and not lose out on efficient mech farming.

And here you argue against your own point. "There should be no cost for failuyre in Softcore leagues, and if they removed the cost for failure it doesn't mean people would ignore the cost for failure!" You cannot advocate for infinite portal attempts and no experience penalty, then act like removing all of the costs associated with failure would not incline players to play as if failure had no cost. Why should someone build defenses and waste build resources on staying alive when dying has no cost or penalty? What's the point?

I fail to see how I am arguing against my own point, especially when not a single person I am aware of has EVER argued for INFINITE map attempts. Experience and levels are still desirable, regardless. Just because some might smash their head bloody against overjuiced walls because they think that's efficient does nothing to change the fact you still need defenses and base build viability. Again, you put words in my mouth and the mouths of others by strawmanning the anti-one-attempt position. The problem isn't with punishment, but how punitive the punishment is. Would you feel the same if a death meant a piece of gear could break? Could you imagine finding or buying a top 1% weapon, die to some bullshit or overconfidence, and suddenly the weapon is just poof gone? I imagine no one would, especially with this game's RNG, so why should I be giving it my all and be happy for a middle finger slapping across my face because I dared not have top tier Life mods on every piece of gear to survive that 0.1% of rares or bullshit situations?

Seriously, your "You first" preamble is advice I strongly suggest you take yourself because I am not interested in arguing dishonest strawmanning.

"

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CPTBRUMBL3Z#3146 wrote:

The closest they've come to an actual point is bringing up individual class balance (like the state of warriors and Life/Armor) which has nothing to do with whether or not death mechanics are too punitive. That argument only further proves my point about players gravitating to screen nuking low effort builds because they don't want to die and lose progress.

People gravitate to "screen nuking low effort builds" because many of them want to feel powerful. They don't want to struggle, they don't want to play a shitty marginal build that's constantly on the verge of failure when they can play something that feels like a badass demon-killing warrior. even players like myself that prefer to engage with the game and dislike the top end of player power being Arbiters-per-second aren't in it to get outclassed by three zombies with a single quill crab throwing fire support. I enjoy dueling a difficult rare with a memorably infuriating mod combination (We shall always remember Regen Jesus, i.e. "Regenerates Life, Damage Taken from Minions First, and Revives Minions") and using the tools available to me to win that little mini-puzzle battle, and I also enjoy dumping a nine-charge Falling Thunder on a dense horde of zomboids and watching them all explode in chunks of ice with an ever-so-satisfying CRONCH! of chilly mayhem.

Considering how vehemently opposed you are to any sort of cost for failure, I'm surprised you're upset about screen nukers. What does it matter if the Falling Thunder or Spark builds can blow up the screen if you can attempt the same map hundreds of times until you can personally Mace Strike every single enemy to death one-on-one at base movement speed with unsupported default attack? You both clear the content, eh?

And again, this actually is a point in our favor as the path of least resistance is a very attractive road. Excessively punitive death mechanics only make that road even more desirable and harms build diversity. Only a tiny minority are calling for all death penalties to be removed (and even then I bet they'd all be fine with 6 attempts a map with no exp penalty). The vast majority want at least for things to return to the 6 attempts of PoE1, because the time and exp penalty already feels like plenty. Stop putting words in my mouth or acting like you know my mindset or my build, because that makes you a dishonest interlocutor. Address the points, not the person.

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Fhrek#4437 wrote:

That is what I've being saying...

1 Portal + no Exp Penalty = OK
6 Portal + Exp Penalty = OK
1 Portal + Exp Penalty = BS

It isn't challenge, is gratuitos punishment for playing the game, has no risk/reward... just sure Risk and uncertain Rewards.

But, there is five disingenous forumites engaged in every thread acting to dereail any constructive feedback.

Personally, I'd keep the exp penalty. No exp penalty but 1 attempt mapping has some serious risk of map sustain problems. The droughts are real, whether you die or not.

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Fhrek#4437 wrote:

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MEITTI#3999 wrote:

Best case scenario GGG does what Fromsoft did and does not care about your feelings on the issue and will just ignore your pleas to casualize the game at the expense of its quality.

Nice to see someone so clueless about Elden Ring and Fromsoftware... after launch the game had some balancing to overall difficulty.

Radahn was nerfed.
Shield Counter hit box was extended.
Godskin Duo IA was softned.
DLC was overall nerfed.
Damage scaling and damage reduction was buffed per Skadutree fragments.
Consort Radahn fight nerfed as well.

Fromsoft listen to everyone and makes the game more and more casual.

Did I talk about overall balancing? PoE 2 has had patches buffing drop rates and nerfing and fixing bugged out monsters as well. Fromsoft has never taken death penalty mechanics away because people whined about it.