XP penalty and likely 1 portal is NOT going anywhere

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MEITTI#3999 wrote:

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CPTBRUMBL3Z#3146 wrote:

Yeah, none of them seem to want to. It's depressing how few people are willing to argue in good faith in basically any forum like this.

So far not a single "XP loss/1 map death bad" arguer has any good points to make. All their arguments devolve into "Challenge is not fun for me I want a no-brain Cookie Clicker game."

I'll reiterate something I said earlier relating to Difficulty vs Challenge under a spoiler tag for brevity's sake.

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The usual circle of "Penalty for dying bad" argument goes like this:

1)"Theres no good reason for it."
Except without it you will rush to the highest tier maps and always juice the maps to the max, this behaviour has already happened way back in PoE 1 Alpha.

Not many people are suggesting there is no reason for any death penalty. Eeking out another 10-20 passive points is still very useful, so not many people are going to like being stuck under level 80-90 for very long. The primary issue at hand for most people as far as I can tell is PoE2's introduction of one-attempt maps (which also applies to campaigns). On top of time and exp loss, we lose: 1) Waystone, 2) Mechanics, 3) Loot drops. That is significantly more punitive than just xp loss. I imagine most people complaining about one-attempt maps are running more or less appropriate tier and are juicing only what they can consistently survive (I almost never run rare because of how common +damage/speed gets rolled, warrior and armor/life generally is in a shit place for defenses right now when I can go dozens of maps being tickled by 99% of mob packs and ONE +damage on a rare and his minions suddenly hits me for 4/5 my life, but that balance state has nothing to do with punitive death mechanics)

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2)"Theres other better punishment options, like Slap on the Wrists, Free Participation Trophy and game developer message telling you that you did an oopsie!"
This is a masked attempt at arguing #1 that there should be no punishment at all.

I'm responding to you in good faith. The least you can do is act with the same good faith by dropping the unnecessary ad hominem attacks on the opposing side's merit, character, or position. Very few people seem to be asking for complete elimination of penalties. The majority seem to just want one-attempt removed and stick to exp loss only. When I've overjuiced in PoE1, it was obvious. When it was the game expecting me to have 90% armor, 85% max resists, 6k health, 20mil DPS, and 80% move speed it was also obvious. Same thing is happening in PoE2 where no amount of skill is going to overcome those rare moments of bullshit that expected you to have some top 0.1% of gear when you otherwise are clearing that same tier at the same amount of juicing consistently without much trouble.

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3)"The game will definitely die just like I've been saying for the past 12 years how the XP penalty definitely kills this game next League."
Games that babysit casuals become games with extremely low skill ceiling and people get bored of those games very quickly, great example Diablo 4.

Exp penalty haters will continue to be proven wrong about its impact on player retention. These one-attempt maps, though, may suggest a different reality with the sheer volume of negative feedback on it. Again, players choose Standard/Softcore for a reason, because we do NOT want significant death penalties. Isn't exp loss enough?

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4)"My time is precious, I have 5 wives and 2 million children and I'm a busy dad! Games that are challenging are wasting my time!"
If you don't have the time to play games, then don't play them. Games don't need to be ruined for everyone else because of your busy life schedule. Just Google "Congratulations screen" and press Search, thats the game you want.

Respecting players' time is important. The fact that you're so trollishly suggesting playing another game is actually a major point in favor of less punitive death penalties because people WILL go to another game that DOES respect their time. Respecting players' time does NOT mean the game has to lack challenge. I died to Malenia a good 120+ times over 6 hours of attempts my first run (aaaand died only twice the second run through go figure) and plenty of people experienced similar and still went on to beat Elden Ring. Plenty of people will keep trying against a challenge. It's not like everyone then had to start over from the beginning of the Halig Tree with every death to her, they started right at the fog wall every time. These punitive one-attempt maps would be more akin to having to start at the entrance of the Halig Tree every time. Absolutely nothing about that would be challenging.

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5)"Getting to 100 doesn't matter, so they should make it easy!"
If it wouldn't matter, you wouldn't be in the forums whining about it.

Precisely why "everyone would just run maps without defenses/good build/enough EHP" is a nonsensical argument and total red herring. You're freely admitting people want to hit high levels for the extra passives and base life/mana. Why add so many more punishments on top of an already difficult task?

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6a)"Other games like Elden Ring don't punish you for dying!"
Except Elden Ring takes away ALL of your XP on death.

... that you can then recover if you're careful, and in the end is rarely consequential given how quickly it can be farmed back, especially in some late game areas. There's literally NOTHING recovered in PoE1/2. You just made a point favoring less impactful death penalties, bud.

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6b)"Elden Ring doesn't take away all of your XP if you just play well."
If you play Path of Exile 2 well you don't die at all.

Most people are dying fairly unpreventable deaths. Again, no amount of skill is going to save you from an attack that can wipe 6K EHP in a single, spammable basic attack from some crit or overjuiced rare. This game's bizarre approach to balancing and the frequency of intense and spontaneous difficulty spikes because of one randomly super juiced rare is a huge reason I don't bother with hardcore, so why should softcore also be so damn punitive?

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7)"Getting punished for taking risks is boring, it discourages people from taking risks!"
False. It teaches players to manage risks. If you don't lose while gambling, you will always gamble the highest stakes at all times. If you don't get punished for losing, then there is no risks and dumb YOLO plays are always encouraged.

Absolutely no one is making an argument that punishment for taking risks is bad or that risk taking is being discouraged. I can run 50 white T15 and clean them out without issue, then the 51st suddenly has a rare with 3 bonus damage mods and one shots me before I even register it was a rare. What risk is being taken there? I actively run without bonus damage mods on my maps because this game doesn't handle mob damage scaling in any sensible way, what the hell "risk" am I taking, or anyone else doing the same?

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8)"Well its just not FUN(tm)"
Games without challenge and fear of dying are not fun. They're not really games at all, they're glorified DvD menus. The point of playing games is to enjoy the journey, not the big congratulations screen at the end. Skipping games is silly, its like you want someone else to ride a rollercoaster ride for you, whats the point of that?

And games that are overly punishing are not fun, no matter how good the challenge is. This is especially true if there are negative feedback loops. The negative feedback loop of one-attempt mapping is that you could run into a map drought. Not only are you losing the map, its mechanics, and any loot that was on the ground, you might then not be able to maintain map sustain, and suddenly someone consistently running t14/15 is down to 11's and 12's because the game won't stop dropping tier 2's and 5's. Nothing about that is challenging, just frustrating. "Fun" is what a game should be. If certain aspects are clearly not fun, or get in the way of the fun of the rest of the game as a whole, then that needs to be addressed. Fun factor also plays into how well a player feels a game respects their time. These current death penalties make many players feel that it does not, and that negatively impacts fun factor. Pretty much Game Design 101 and you're dismissing it out of hand. Remarkably dishonest argument.

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All these threads go through this same circle. Those arguing for removal of XP penalty can't answer a single one of those 8 points, but then start a new thread and ignore you. Thus it is safe to say and generalize that all people arguing for removing dying penalties know they are wrong but they're pushing for it anyway because they want an easy game for babies.

No one is asking for the game to be made easier, just less punitive. Punishment does not equate to challenge. Punishment must be teachable. Being randomly one shot and losing the entire map, its mechanics, and all loot when you barely ever run into bad situations in the same difficulty tier is flatly not teachable of anything actually useful.

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1453R#7804 wrote:

To be further clear on my own stance, I don't think the XP penalty for death should be present in PoE2. I like One Portal, and frankly I find it strange that you can attempt a node on the Atlas after bricking your first attempt. I feel like losing the map and the node should be punishment enough, they do not need to make you retroactively fail previously successful maps by removing experience. But that is specifically an endorsement of One Portal, which no one else feels is acceptable because losing the map means less sustain, and thus less progress. Either your past progress is eroded i.e. XP loss, or your future progress is hindered i.e. map/node blockage. ONE of those needs to be a thing, but both of them is probably too much.

That said, there always needs to be a failure state. There always NEEDS to be a failure state, or the success state has absolutely zero meaning.

That is what I've being saying...

1 Portal + no Exp Penalty = OK
6 Portal + Exp Penalty = OK
1 Portal + Exp Penalty = BS

It isn't challenge, is gratuitos punishment for playing the game, has no risk/reward... just sure Risk and uncertain Rewards.

But, there is five disingenous forumites engaged in every thread acting to dereail any constructive feedback.

Keep xp penalty. Remove one portal. The first game didn't have one portal and I see no reason for it to be in this game either.

No exp penalty would make glass cannon builds too strong.

Tho I don't like the 10% loss I would like it to be like 5% only one bar not two

the XP loss has to stay as if it was not here all players would be level 100 and have Nothing to work towards

I am level 91 I would be 100 if I had not died all the time to me silly and not paying attention to what is going on

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artxev#6334 wrote:

I don't like glass cannon builds, but they are a way to play the game.

And you're setting yourself up for failure if you choose to go Glass cannon. That is because the game is essentially a Bullet Hell Shmup game with random patterns. That means it doesn't matter how mechanically good you are, you ARE GOING TO GET HIT. If you constantly die because you didn't invest in defences, that is your fault, not the games fault.

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Are you serious? Who are you to tell me which games I can play and which I can't?

I'm not telling you which games to play, your busy schedule is. If you don't have time to invest in more time-demanding games, then you don't have it.

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Do I need to remind you how many one shot mechanics there are in POE2?
I give you another example: you've passed all four floors of Trial of Sekhemas, maybe you are already a bit tired, it doesn't matter, you are in front of Zarokh and his barely infinite health pool, you're almost about to beat him, but one moment of distraction and that stupid clock minigame one shots you (I usually die in Maven memory game too, I know).

Are you telling me that the game is punishing you for your lapse of attention? Oh no the horror! What we really need is a game that never punishes you at all so you can read book while mashing one button and not looking at the screen.

You learned how to get your Runes back in Elden Ring with Torrent, so you don't lose runes in Elden Ring if you play good. If you play good in PoE 2 you don't die at all. Hardcore wouldn't exist at all if the game would be full of unfair oneshots. Just like in Elden Ring you just need to git gud.

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CPTBRUMBL3Z#3146 wrote:

I'll reiterate something I said earlier relating to Difficulty vs Challenge under a spoiler tag for brevity's sake.

Spoiler

Yes, difficulty can be an important part of challenge. Knowing how to approach greater difficulty can definitely be a challenge. However, that only works if executed right. No amount of strategy, preparation, or game knowledge will prevent a one shot from some mob you didn't even have a chance to register was there,

That is not an XP penalty issue, that is a balance issue which you can post in feedback or bug report if it was really invisible.

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The usual circle of "Penalty for dying bad" argument goes like this:

On top of time and exp loss, we lose: 1) Waystone, 2) Mechanics, 3) Loot drops. That is significantly more punitive than just xp loss.

Yet you're primarily complaining about the XP loss which hasn't been an issue since Diablo 2 first came out. 6 Portals in PoE 1 caused a YOLO playstyle of a lot of players who simply refused to learn the game and just kamikazed through ultra-juiced maps because they got huge returns for it anyway. So they end up dying 2000+ times every single League without any clue what a single PoE 1 mob or boss actually does.

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Same thing is happening in PoE2 where no amount of skill is going to overcome those rare moments of bullshit that expected you to have some top 0.1% of gear when you otherwise are clearing that same tier at the same amount of juicing consistently without much trouble.

Which should be the indicator that you've been taking too high a risk all along. Hardcore players in PoE 1 generally farm maps that are at least 15 levels lower than their current level if they want to stay on the safe side of things.

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Exp penalty haters will continue to be proven wrong about its impact on player retention. These one-attempt maps, though, may suggest a different reality with the sheer volume of negative feedback on it.

People have been whining about XP penalty and how POE is definitely going to die for at least 10 years, yet the Steam charts alone prove otherwise. Casualizing games do not make people stay longer in the game, Diablo 4 is proof of that. In Diablo 4 you can press a button and you deal 15 trillion or even Infinite damage on the screen and you will never die because monsters melt 3 screens away. Yet people got bored of that game very quickly.

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Respecting players' time is important. The fact that you're so trollishly suggesting playing another game is actually a major point in favor of less punitive death penalties because people WILL go to another game that DOES respect their time.

Name one Arpg currently bigger than Path of Exile 1 or 2.

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Precisely why "everyone would just run maps without defenses/good build/enough EHP" is a nonsensical argument and total red herring. You're freely admitting people want to hit high levels for the extra passives and base life/mana. Why add so many more punishments on top of an already difficult task?

Because its meant to be difficult. Back when Atlas was first introduced the top players reached level 100 in less than a week. GGG nerfed the XP gain between levels 95-100 twice after that. It is a clear conscious decision that getting to 100 is supposed to be difficult.

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... that you can then recover if you're careful,

You don't die in PoE 2 if you're careful. I haven't died in PoE 2 endgame since last year. And I'm playing an SSF Warrior.

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Most people are dying fairly unpreventable deaths.

Which again are a bug report or balance argument issue, not XP penalty issue.

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I can run 50 white T15 and clean them out without issue, then the 51st suddenly has a rare with 3 bonus damage mods and one shots me before I even register it was a rare.

That is a sign that either you don't pay attention to the screen, or your build lacks defences. That, or you're in too high level maps for your build.

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And games that are overly punishing are not fun, no matter how good the challenge is. This is especially true if there are negative feedback loops. The negative feedback loop of one-attempt mapping is that you could run into a map drought. Not only are you losing the map, its mechanics, and any loot that was on the ground, you might then not be able to maintain map sustain, and suddenly someone consistently running t14/15 is down to 11's and 12's because the game won't stop dropping tier 2's and 5's.

High tier maps are intentionally supposed to be harder to sustain. Why do you think casual players should be able to easily clear the highest level content in the game? If you do constantly die on certain tier maps then its a clear message to you that your build is not ready.

Back in PoE 1 Alpha there was no map system, instead you had linked levels of higher and higher tiers connected through doorways. What ended up happening was that players immediatly rushed to the highest tier content possible, kept constantly dying there and then came back to these forums to cry how the game is too difficult.

Not one of them thought that maybe they should spend more time in lower tier areas first. Remove map sustain and death penalties and that is 100% how players are going to act again. You are acting like it right now.

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No one is asking for the game to be made easier, just less punitive. Punishment does not equate to challenge.

Yes it does. If you had infinite HP in Elden Ring it doesn't matter if the boss had a million different movesets to learn you could still just mash the attack button to win automatically. Risk of failure is what defines challenge. If the failure does not exist, there is no challenge.

You failed to prove any of my points wrong, your argument boiled down to the last one just like I predicted "Well its just not FUN(tm)".

there was another thread that got buried where someone brought up the idea of xp debt - instead of losing xp when you die, you go into 'xp debt' of an undetermined amount (lets say 5% of total xp for the character to get from level x to level x+1).

While under the effects of XP debt, half of all xp earned goes towards servicing that debt so while you are still making progress, its been cut in half as a death penalty until you pay off the debt.

In this post, the person who put this idea forward mentioned that a cap would likely be necessary, so you could only go into xp debt = to 1.5 levels (which would require dying 30 times before paying off your xp debt).

I thought this was a marvelous idea; its definitely a punishment you want to avoid but it doesnt make you feel like you're going nowhere or even backwards...its more of a brake saying 'whoa, slow down their junior! you should probably upgrade your gear or rework your build before getting on this ride!'

introduce XP debt, give us 4 portals per map, and wipe out all map special events on first death. Plenty of incentive not to die and enough punishment to keep us from banging our heads on a wall.

1 death per map has made leveling up easier. Back in POE1 whenever i died on a map, I re-entered, died to same thing again, re-entered again, died. I would lose an entire level because I was too stubborn to quit. But here, I die, I only lose 2 bubbles.

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CPTBRUMBL3Z#3146 wrote:

I'm responding to you in good faith.

And then...

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CPTBRUMBL3Z#3146 wrote:

"ad hominem attacks"

"bullshit"

"Exp penalty haters will continue to be proven wrong"

"Respecting players' time is important. The fact that you're so trollishly suggesting playing another game is actually a major point in favor of less punitive death penalties because people WILL go to another game that DOES respect their time."

"nonsensical argument and total red herring."

"bud."

"Most people are dying fairly unpreventable deaths."

"Pretty much Game Design 101 and you're dismissing it out of hand. Remarkably dishonest argument."

"No one is asking for the game to be made easier"

That's your good faith and how to debate with someone ? Please.

Can you at least admit that when you die it's most of the time your own fault ?

That would be a great start ; and then we may be able to iron out the rare few deaths which are caused by overpowered enemies and unseen effects. But that's only and surely so few of them.

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Buggsy2#1098 wrote:

1 death per map has made leveling up easier. Back in POE1 whenever i died on a map, I re-entered, died to same thing again, re-entered again, died. I would lose an entire level because I was too stubborn to quit. But here, I die, I only lose 2 bubbles.

I did the same and wanted to keep playing that system more than what we currently have.
I sometimes push too hard in poe2 and die saying "yep, I deserved that".
But more often it's just some random bs that the only reason I die to is because I don't RMT.
It gets harder to decide to keep playing everytime. I'm still enjoying learning various aspects of the game since the first league I really played in poe1 was settlers of kalguur.
Exp loss is fine I couldn't care less. But everything else that comes with death in this new system really doesn't inspire learning. Just overgearing so no matter how royally you mess up odds are you still don't die.