please get rid of MF, make players WANT to play SSF

"

AverBeg7#1689 wrote:

Okay, there's casuals, and there's sweats. What makes you feel entitled to be on the same level as the players sweating, as a casual?

There's people who follow builds, and people who play scuffed builds that hit walls too early. It is a community effort to make great builds. Why do you expect to run into something that clears the whole game as just one person with no POB?

As a casual, you should be happy with completing the campaign. Which can be done with any scuffed build. If you are not using the community to bounce ideas off of, or to get inspiration from, then what makes you think you are entitled to the highest level of gameplay?

The lategame is there to be conquered by these so called "sweats". If your build sucks, then find a better one and reroll, like everyone else. If you want to do only your own ideas, you are just making it hard on yourself.

Any counterpoints?

none, i ll just wait for ggg as i know i m not getting to you ;)

"

exsea#1724 wrote:

"

AverBeg7#1689 wrote:

If you are running t15/t16 maps frequently, that means you exalting them, and vaaling them, correct? Probably about 50 a day if you are really farming?

So... Again, How do you not believe it's possible if you are doing it lol. Maps are items that you slam too.

this is the entire premise of this thread.

the game REQUIRES you to MF if you want to play. running safe maps, or just even slamming trans/augs. is not enough.

thats a good way to kill the "more casual" playerbase, as well as kill of build diversity.

No, actually you should eventually be juicing maps in any type of gameplay. If you aren't, then you're doing it wrong. If you are doing it wrong, then don't expect to get to t15+ and beat the entire endgame SSF.

Just stop being so hard-headed and take a look at what better players are doing, and learn from them. If you don't want to do that, then don't expect to conquer the world on your own, be happy with whatever you achieved.

"

AverBeg7#1689 wrote:

No, actually you should eventually be juicing maps in any type of gameplay. If you aren't, then you're doing it wrong. If you are doing it wrong, then don't expect to get to t15+ and beat the entire endgame SSF.

Just stop being so hard-headed and take a look at what better players are doing, and learn from them. If you don't want to do that, then don't expect to conquer the world on your own, be happy with whatever you achieved.

i love how in path2 gatekeeping is still prevalent.

your opinion is as valid as mine and i'll just sit here and wait to see how ggg decides to rebalance things.. or not.

ggg has been quiet for the holidays and i m happy for them to get the break that deserve. lets just sit and wait rather than prodding at each other telling "how" we are "meant to play" the game.

"

exsea#1724 wrote:

"

AverBeg7#1689 wrote:

No, actually you should eventually be juicing maps in any type of gameplay. If you aren't, then you're doing it wrong. If you are doing it wrong, then don't expect to get to t15+ and beat the entire endgame SSF.

Just stop being so hard-headed and take a look at what better players are doing, and learn from them. If you don't want to do that, then don't expect to conquer the world on your own, be happy with whatever you achieved.

i love how in path2 gatekeeping is still prevalent.

your opinion is as valid as mine and i'll just sit here and wait to see how ggg decides to rebalance things.. or not.

ggg has been quiet for the holidays and i m happy for them to get the break that deserve. lets just sit and wait rather than prodding at each other telling "how" we are "meant to play" the game.

I'm not gatekeeping you, I am telling you that beating the game is hard, and you are likely to not do it on your own, with your own build, as an SSF player. So you should go see what other people are doing who are better, and emulate them. Instead of asking the devs to make SSF easy mode when that would likely upset everyone who uses SSF as a self-imposed challenge.

IF you really want to do your own build, then have you thought about testing a build in trade, making sure it works (and the items are easy to get) then taking it to SSF?

"

AverBeg7#1689 wrote:

"

exsea#1724 wrote:

"

AverBeg7#1689 wrote:

No, actually you should eventually be juicing maps in any type of gameplay. If you aren't, then you're doing it wrong. If you are doing it wrong, then don't expect to get to t15+ and beat the entire endgame SSF.

Just stop being so hard-headed and take a look at what better players are doing, and learn from them. If you don't want to do that, then don't expect to conquer the world on your own, be happy with whatever you achieved.

i love how in path2 gatekeeping is still prevalent.

your opinion is as valid as mine and i'll just sit here and wait to see how ggg decides to rebalance things.. or not.

ggg has been quiet for the holidays and i m happy for them to get the break that deserve. lets just sit and wait rather than prodding at each other telling "how" we are "meant to play" the game.

I'm not gatekeeping you, I am telling you that beating the game is hard, and you are likely to not do it on your own, with your own build, as an SSF player. So you should go see what other people are doing who are better, and emulate them. Instead of asking the devs to make SSF easy mode when that would likely upset everyone who uses SSF as a self-imposed challenge.

IF you really want to do your own build, then have you thought about testing a build in trade, making sure it works (and the items are easy to get) then taking it to SSF?

"just play infernalist"

"

LaiTash#6276 wrote:

"just play infernalist"

Invoker and deadeye are both pretty good too. There is a Chayula Monk and a Titan in the top 5 players on the SSF leaderboards (people think those classes are terrible).

Just have a look at what better people are doing and learn a thing or two. If you can't do that, don't expect to one-shot a complicated game with some random thing you cooked up and be content with what you managed to do on your own.

"

exsea#1724 wrote:

SSF is an opt in. if you want to opt into SSF its a personal choice. i m not asking the game to FORCE players to SSF. i want the game to be generous enough that i can play SSF and not feel bad that trade leagues is much more efficient.

also, in LE, they solved this issue. theres a "SSF-ish" option where your drops are only yours but you cannot trade. you could even get drop bonuses and tailored drops if you chose this option, so partying with others comes with no drawback.

yeah ive played LE, i backed it in beta years before release like i do almost all arpgs.

i dont think they solved it, i think they have an absolutely trash trading system and the other option is to go ssf, you cant play with your friends and share drops but if you dont want to trade with the wider community you are forced to do that because the drop rates have been balanced that way.

its terrible and a lot of why they essentially have a pretty dead game.



LE has the best crafting system out of any arpg ever made. its a bit too easy but the way it revolves around the gameplay loop, forcing you to keep getting new items, allowing you to edit them significantly but not endlessly where you could lose all your materials, then you need to go back and get more items to work from... its great, its the best thing in their game, its the best crafting system in any arpg ever.

it IS too easy tho, it doesnt rly hold up long enough to provide a long term game. thats just balance tho, weightings and stat ranges, they could easily fix that.

"

exsea#1724 wrote:

forced single player is bad, forced partying is bad too. as mentioned i dont want that and actually its not even a point i wanted to bring to this entire discussion. i just want drops to be good enough that we're not forced to rely on trade.

for sure, trust me i want that too. im not trading in poe2, i traded a ton in poe1 im never doing it again. i play with my friends, we share loot, i play with my mrs shes addicted to mapping right now cant get her off the bloody thing. i dont want to rely on trade.


i also dont want to be forced to play solo self found in order to not rely on trade.


people think ssf is a way to get what they want, but its a really bad system. the game should function without trade, the whole game. thats what i want, thats what you want and guess what? thats what the devs want too.

they dont want you to have to trade, they know most players dont trade and theyre going to massive lengths to make the game as accessible as possible and for it to work for normal players who are not wiki students and are not full time traders.



but they also want the game to be hard. theyre not intentionally doing this to force you to trade, they just think the game should be a bloody nightmare to get through.

i think the balance is off, you think its off. lets make the case for that, lets get it changed. they will change it, they want the game to be great and for it to work.


the ssf thing is a dead end, we just put the changes that need to be made into the full game where they should be.

"

exsea#1724 wrote:

grimdawn/tq are old ass games but their drops feel way better. if you truly want MORE players to play POE2. having more drops actually helps more than it hurts.

grim dawn is a newer game than poe1, and its dead.


its dead because its a single player game.


its not about everyone having to trade, its not about everyone partying. i have mostly played poe solo and i dont ever want to trade again.

but the game being built around a trade economy, a shared sense of working together and competing, for the best items, the best builds, the fastest clears and completions. that sense of the game being massively multiplayer is what has made poe the most successful arpg ever and the lack of that is why grim dawn is dead, tq, torchlight, epoch, wolcen, all the other games, even d3 which had a sense of something and then mostly destroyed it.


i backed grim dawn when it was just act1, the game finished at the act1 boss in that lab. i farmed the shit out of that boss. its a cool game, but its basically a single player game and like all sp games they last a few 100 hours at best and then die.


if poe2 followed grim dawns model it would die just like grim dawn.




its very important that poe2 works for ssf, that is how most people play that is how the game should be balanced. poe1 is ssf balanced, d2 that they modelled it on was ssf balanced. but they really shouldnt encourage ssf, it shouldnt be incentivised, it should just be how the actual game is balanced. and i believe that is what ggg want too.

its also very important that poe2 has a strong sense of multiplayer community built around an economy.

"

AverBeg7#1689 wrote:

"

LaiTash#6276 wrote:

"just play infernalist"

Invoker and deadeye are both pretty good too. There is a Chayula Monk and a Titan in the top 5 players on the SSF leaderboards (people think those classes are terrible).

Just have a look at what better people are doing and learn a thing or two. If you can't do that, don't expect to one-shot a complicated game with some random thing you cooked up and be content with what you managed to do on your own.

I've been playing poe since 2013 on HC, HCSSF shortly after it was introduced, and yes i do think map sustain sucks in poe2 and no amount of "just gid gud" aka follow the meta copium can compensate for that.

Sustain doesn't have to be terrible just because your build is suboptimal. But honestly the whole idea of "you can't progress unless a certain item drops and if it doesn't you may actually regress" is, and always was, moronic beyond belief.

SSF obviously needs some form of adjustment to looting in it that makes up for the lack of trading.
It's also obvious that in both ssf and regular league the game is way too heavily balanced around the peak loadouts only dedicated traders will have.

But the main problem with ssf is always the following:
You absolutely should not have to forfeit the ability to play with friends, or even public groups, to access a self found league. It's not justified.
There needs to be Group Self Found. Multiplayer Self Found. Period.

And before anyone says it, private leagues do not count.
Firstly because they are temporary, buying a private league has a duration after which it's gone.
The only way buying a private league could make any sense was if it was a permanent purchase, providing the same standard league - challenge league functionality as live servers.
Secondly because a self found league with multiplayer allowed is not something that should have to be purchased. It should just be one of the league types, with a ladder and everything.

"

LaiTash#6276 wrote:

I've been playing poe since 2013 on HC, HCSSF shortly after it was introduced, and yes i do think map sustain sucks in poe2 and no amount of "just gid gud" aka follow the meta copium can compensate for that.

Sustain doesn't have to be terrible just because your build is suboptimal. But honestly the whole idea of "you can't progress unless a certain item drops and if it doesn't you may actually regress" is, and always was, moronic beyond belief.

Well, the conversation isn't about map sustain. It's about MFing. MF won't drop you more waystones, more waystone chance and killing uniques will.

I agree though, I'm not a fan of the system. Until you have +2 difficulty bosses, the map drops are terrible. Even after, it doesn't feel great, since you really want the right rolls on your maps to not die with one portal.