I'm sick of zoom meta. (Speed creep created bad combat and game balance)

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SpectralLynx wrote:

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Kaboinglefop wrote:

The player base is pretty polarized around the balance of the game to be honest, and GGG can't keep everyone happy.

That's because pushing the boundaries of this crazy sandbox GGG let us play in keeps many players engaged. Imagine having to chunk at damage sponges with telegraphed attacks all the time without any chance to outgrow them.

Again, I can't see how the automatic idea that trying to create more engaging combat means the enemies have to be damage sponges you can't outgrow.
That just doesn't make sense to me. In fact, I'd wager that is just the opposite extreme...

the sandbox can be cool and fun while also not being a poorly communicated visually cluttered experience where you filter out 99% of the items, pick up an occasional one, and spend 0 time on what enemies youre even fighting.

Playing something slower? well the monsters and loot are balanced around the floor of that balance bar.

There is definitely a happy middle ground that can retain having power fantasy, increases to speed without it being so out of the box at a baseline.

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innervation wrote:

On the subject of ad hominem / logical fallacy - you may take what he said personally and see it as an ad hominem 'attack' but it is not a fallacy because it is relevant.

You claim you're less engaged and it's perfectly reasonable and relevant to speculate that it might be because you're playing an 'overpowered' build which leads to...not very engaging combat.

So yeah, not every ad hominem is a fallacy.

Fair enough, but ye I would play weirder builds before. But like I said, my entire group myself included is just in a hurry to get our league rewards and get out since we know what the combat has been like for years now and what to expect. (Majority of us are on D2, HC or ladder or GSF now.) which is what I highlighted in my reply. Went from making experimental characters every league, at least 2-3, to none because even when the characters work out, the end result isnt as satisfying.

The balance for loot, speed, power, and monsters is just kind of poor, so I'm moreso in a hurry to get out because I know the combat poopoo.

Going below the baseline power/speed bar doesnt really reveal anything fun/engaging under there. And the speed fantasy / silly sandbox, I will admit was fun for me. For like 3-4 years. It just got old. I pretty much have more fun in the campaign and early maps than the rest of the game.

(And I think doing ubers with low dps is actually a really good part of the game. I only made an uber instagibber because I had to kill do a good number for my 40/40 and to wrap up other team members 40/40 for their voidstones, other things, etc.)

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Kaboinglefop wrote:

There is definitely a happy middle ground that can retain having power fantasy, increases to speed without it being so out of the box at a baseline.

I've yet to see any of PoE's competitors find this middle ground. If it exists, I'll be happy to take it.

completely, totaly and uterly disagree.
zoom meta is one of the reason's poe excel as an arpg (im not saying its the only one, but it is a reason for it). Being honest, its boring and sad to be doing damage for straight up minutes to an ordinary rare. There can be a solution, but its hard: improve rewards.

now let me go a bit deeper to the problem. what i think is the root problem: REWARDS.

99,9999% of the rewards we get in the game is garbage. To the point its not worth to identify rares in the ground (unless its a base you want to craft on). So, since the rewards are BAD and the crafting system is BAD (and they nerf it every damn league), we need to rely on currency. Guess whats the best way to get currency? zoom builds.

Whats worse: most endgame content is made covering optimized builds. And in order to have these optimized endgame builds, we need to craft more. One thing leads to the other, and here we are: tons of gems that aren't close to be playable specially if you talk about hardcore, where the balance between survivability and damage is much more strict. We need to grin tons.

so its quite complex, but also a thing of "taste". I'm in the mid ground here: not the zoomest guy, but not a slug.

Theres also one thing: there will always people that will focus on the meta/best zoom builds. Efficiency is recommended on any grindy game and poe takes that to another level. So... theres not a good solution tbh.

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SpectralLynx wrote:

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Kaboinglefop wrote:

There is definitely a happy middle ground that can retain having power fantasy, increases to speed without it being so out of the box at a baseline.

I've yet to see any of PoE's competitors find this middle ground. If it exists, I'll be happy to take it.

Really? Is this more because only "smart bombing"* every screen instantly um... "does it for you" so to speak?


I do have a theory that POE players who can't imagine slowing down and still having fun are both actually wrong (they can) and are "jaded" like a "hub" addict that needs "step parent" vids or something XD

When I say actually wrong, I expect some crazy high number of "I can't enjoy slower combat" would actually do just fine. I base this theory on human nature but also I've literally watched the most jadded "clear speed meta" streamers play slower games.

CuteDog is a Lost Ark streamer BTW... that game is 1/4th the speed of mapping in POE even in a Chaos Dungeon and its more like 1/10th everywhere else in the game.

Its also a game filled with satisfying tactical combat with rewards for using skills correctly which makes the "slower" combat still fulfill the power fantasy while not being mindless and insanely repetitive.


*smart bombs were a button in 80-90's stand up arcade games that cleared the entire screen instantly and you usually had 1 to 3 of them and had to use them judiciously. Games like Defender/Stargate and many others had this. POE basically lets you have unlimited of them with the mindless combat that naturally ensues that some people love.

There are plenty of ARPG games that don't have zoom that you can play

None forces you to go fast in POE

In fact you can make characters where all you do is bossing, which has nothing to do with clear speed or zoom

It's pretty simple that in a formula where monsters slain = loot

The faster you slay monsters the more loot you will obtain

POE doesn't need to be slow and doesn't need to slow down anything

There are plenty of league options like SSF, HC and Ruthless to modify the loot you obtain or make deaths more punishing

But no matter what, speed is always king in an ARPG game

Speed is king in every MMO as well

The faster you do raids, the faster you level up etc etc.... the better you are considered

If you don't like it, then don't play? None's forcing you to play

If you don't like a game, the entire game isn't going to change its core because you don't like it

The game has already provided you with options to modify your experience and if that's not enough, then it's just not for you

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benjaminbona wrote:

There are plenty of ARPG games that don't have zoom that you can play

None forces you to go fast in POE

In fact you can make characters where all you do is bossing, which has nothing to do with clear speed or zoom

If you don't like it, then don't play?

What would we play? POE has all the depth, complex builds, 3 month new content, arguably the best loot system of all ARPG's (well the drop rates and balancing of rarity are fucked so maybe D2's is still a better system) the best endgame of any ARPG or MMO EVER MADE (IMO) yes better than any MMO... raiding endgames in MMO's are contrived virtual amusment park rides "stand in the square not in the circle" paint by numbers gaming.

So yeah what is it we should play?

Sadly POE also has the genres most mindless combat, even when not going fast its strictly worse than even Diablo 2 at least in terms of impact and connectedness. To this day D2R feels wonderful to go play because it puts POE's dick in the dirt for loot drops feeling amazing (not getting drowned in worthless drops) and slick though simple combat...

And you want to continue to have the most mindless brain dead combat why? It's already been pointed out the speed pretty much forces POE to have the worst balanced loot drops... The reason you MUST go giga fast is that you need to blaze past endless waste dumps of junk to get your filter to highlight the 1/10,000 or more things that are worth picking up.

Is it because you fear change maybe? Because the dopamine per hour of the clear speed meta hits right (and I would agree is absolutely atrocious without the speed?) and you don't think they can make a slower game hit right? Maybe they can't but that remains to be seen.

Again you want me and others to go play ... what exactly? The Dev's themselves clearly desire to slow the pace to something more reasonable to give better design space to skills. Without change every skill GGG makes needs to explode screens or its dead on arrival.

Anyway I'm glad its you some clear speed meta enjoyer telling me to go play something else, rather than a GGG dev. When they tell me to go play something else (by keeping POE2"s combat brain dead) I'll be sure to give up.

You have any idea how many clear speed meta players have told me to go play something else? Between here and the reddit sub I'd guess hundreds of times.

But but but... I'm the games explicitly stated target audience??? A hard core gamer who loved D2 and wants to play the continuation or "spiritual successor"...

Personally I think GGG absolutely must fork the game into zoomy mode and more engaging combat mode, for people like you. I expect thats what they're going to announce at Exilecon.

Then, never again will you have to tell me to go play another game. Never again will I have to tell you I want my "most deep and complex" ARPG with the most crazy endgame content, to also have deep(er) more engaging combat. at least not the mindless cookie clicker its devolved into.

We all win. The cookie clickers can play their mode, and the people who don't want mindless combat get their mode.

LUL im zooming in D4 with frost spells.. its crazy how feel good it is to delete packs on the screen


Edit: I honestly think normal vs ruthless is a good way to handle zoom meta vs slow methodical play. Maybe drop tuning will enhance both playstyles.

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marlinpike wrote:

LUL im zooming in D4 with frost spells.. its crazy how feel good it is to delete packs on the screen


Edit: I honestly think normal vs ruthless is a good way to handle zoom meta vs slow methodical play. Maybe drop tuning will enhance both playstyles.

you def zoom in ruth, its just the progression is slower

I think some of the draw to this game is the ability to overcome and trivialize enemies and feel the power grow. For example it feels great when the rare and unique monsters in T1 maps are no longer a challenge to your build, so you'll seek more dangerous enemies to overcome. Speed is one thing you can feel growing even before you kill any of the monsters.