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jack_aubrey wrote:
Slow is not fun and with a game like PoE, there will always be a "speed meta." Complaining about it is stupid when Ruthless exists.
Hard disagree
GGG has acknowledged
There is quite literally a demand for more, deliberate combat
It does not have to be a snail's pace to be fun and engaging. Everyone thinks adjusting speed creep of the game is like changing it to runescape levels of combat, which is just hyperbolic.
and again, "ruthless exists" doesnt address ANY CORE ISSUES discussed in this thread.
(╭☞ ͡° ͜ʖ ͡° )╭☞
ｄｏｎｔ ｔａｌｋｉｎｇ ｐｌｅａｓｅ
(╭☞ ͡° ͜ʖ ͡° )╭☞
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Posted byKaboinglefop#0955on Jun 11, 2023, 11:01:23 PM
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jack_aubrey wrote:
Slow is not fun and with a game like PoE, there will always be a "speed meta." Complaining about it is stupid when Ruthless exists.
My word sir, Ruthless wasn't made for the core population of the game.
Its fine if people enjoy it but the speed meta is real and they need to nerf it on occasion or it invalidates most other stuff, nerfs are always overcome by buffs over time (usually)
haste for example imo should be split into two aura's:
Haste: Grants % increased action speed
Sprint: Grants % increased movement speed
i would expect it to cost 175% of the original coming out at a total of 87.5%
Haste being 50% and sprint being 37(likely 35%)
that would slightly nerf speed meta and aura-bot meta but not invalidate them at all.
They could do this to almost every aura that has multiple effects which would in turn make super high end aura bots have to pick and choose their aura's and even force more organized play to rely upon more aura bots reducing how many carry-services they can perform per rotation.
tell me im wrong and ill...
Innocence forgives you Last edited by SilentSymphony#3358 on Jun 11, 2023, 11:39:11 PM
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Posted bySilentSymphony#3358on Jun 11, 2023, 11:07:16 PM
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AdRonZh3Ro wrote:
First off, the hell's speed creep? You mean the speed of the monsters?
Also why not just play Dark Souls then? You basically want a literal overhaul of the game.
they don't have to lose them, they can fork the zoom version of the game into a mode, and put the POE2 combat in as the normal mode. Then you have all the "flags" like SSF, HC and Ruthless etc. to customize your experience. So you could play Zoomy SSF HC ruthless, or Normal SSF HC ruthless. or any combo of the flags in either normal or zoom mode.
They could also make "zoom" keystones on the atlas passive tree that restores single skill use (1 button screen clear with no need for mechanics like buffs, setups, builder spender or cooldown based skills). Something like:
"your main skill does 2x damage and uses half resource your quant and rarity are reduced by 80%"
"Your Maps have double packsize and all map fragments gain double effect: your base quant and rarity is halved"
"your speed cap is no longer limited to 45%: your quant and rarity are reduced by every % over speed cap"
Now all this assumes that they baseline loot to a new "normalized" standard that is not the current dumpsters raining trash on our heads level.
They probably also need a new "Quality" metric that improves the weighting of rolls, and lowers it for "zoom zoom" mode.
Pandering to players who don't want consequences for their mistakes is a perfect description of what went fundamentally wrong with D3 and 4.
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Posted byalhazred70#2994on Jun 11, 2023, 11:58:55 PM
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jack_aubrey wrote:
Slow is not fun and with a game like PoE, there will always be a "speed meta." Complaining about it is stupid when Ruthless exists.
So listen to how you sound: "just play ultra stingy mode that requires 1000x more grinding than an already GRINDY AF game: if you want.....
engaging... combat... ???
Ruthless improves combat moderately for a few days or weeks per league because you don't have the ability to teleport yourself out of every positional mistake and your skills are under scaled because you lack supports. Thats about the extent of it... this is not engaging combat and everyone who wants engaging combat does not also want a 1000x grind multiplier, aweful map sustain and the gutted Ruthless Atlas tree which looks more like someone vandalized the data files by deleting stuff than it looks like a thoughtfully designed game system.
Pandering to players who don't want consequences for their mistakes is a perfect description of what went fundamentally wrong with D3 and 4.
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Posted byalhazred70#2994on Jun 12, 2023, 12:24:01 AM
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i used to make a balanced character where i tried to add tons of defense.
maven's invites taught me that defenses mean shit when you dont kill off bosses quickly. you might be able to tank 1 boss, what about 2, what about 3 then, or why not 10?
if your dps is piss poor, maven would heal up all the damage you've done.
then we have shaper/elder/maven with permanent floor degen effects.
ggg also reworked fortify.
the moment i slotted something else to replace fortify, my dps jumped. i also realized the truth.
defences mean little when a random AN mob with certain deadly combinations pop out.
why bother
the best defence is offence. kill everything before they kill you.
i've learned to embrace it and enjoy it.
on the extreme side of things, there was a person on reddit, did ubers a hundred times? when asked to share her build, people were shocked to see her hp was under 3k?
who need defense when she takes down ubers in seconds?
[Removed by Support]
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Posted byexsea#1724on Jun 12, 2023, 1:58:59 AM
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Pizzarugi wrote:
HH encourages zoom meta.
Timed leagues necessitate the zoom meta.
In order for us to do something about this incessant need to go fast, GGG first needs to stop adding content that punishes you for not being fast enough, as in remove the timers in these problem leagues. After that, rework or remove the chase unique that turns any non-summoner build into a 1-minute mapping nightmare.
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Draegnarrr wrote:
It isn't complicated really they just need to remember that speed is its own reward without mechanics directly rewarding speed as well.
Take legion for example, not only does a fast character get significantly more loot, they also encounter the mechanic faster. The result is a fast character isn't getting a linear increase as they should.
Simplest solutions to this are things like expedition where your initial choice is just that, a choice, rather than being based on character speed to begin with. Fast characters still clear the encounter they setup faster as they should but they aren't double dipping due to their speed.
Players generally behave like any suggestion of removing speed is terrible and it'll go to just being snail paced but it really won't, speed is the core precept of ARPG design as its the most noticeable form of player power. Even in "slower games" a good character goes far faster than a slow one and its focused as a stat after a certain point.
GGG don't always screw their paradigm up either a great deal of the speed meta is actually how player mentality and approach to the game has changed over time. I think measuring anything in div/hr is completely degenerate for example but it has become increasingly popular for players to focus speed in search of a higher and higher currency earner.
My old man yells at cloud moment about all this is GGG have created, permitted and encouraged far too many crutches for a game purported to have challenging endgame and crutches just feed the speed demon. Just look at mageblood, its ludicrously rare/expensive while simultaneously allowing you to run even a shit build at maximum speed once you get it. Its no wonder players focus on earnings and going faster and faster.
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alhazred70 wrote:
Ruthless improves combat moderately for a few days or weeks per league because you don't have the ability to teleport yourself out of every positional mistake and your skills are under scaled because you lack supports. Thats about the extent of it... this is not engaging combat and everyone who wants engaging combat does not also want a 1000x grind multiplier, aweful map sustain and the gutted Ruthless Atlas tree which looks more like someone vandalized the data files by deleting stuff than it looks like a thoughtfully designed game system.
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exsea wrote:
i used to make a balanced character where i tried to add tons of defense.
maven's invites taught me that defenses mean shit when you dont kill off bosses quickly. you might be able to tank 1 boss, what about 2, what about 3 then, or why not 10?
if your dps is piss poor, maven would heal up all the damage you've done.
then we have shaper/elder/maven with permanent floor degen effects.
ggg also reworked fortify.
the moment i slotted something else to replace fortify, my dps jumped. i also realized the truth.
defences mean little when a random AN mob with certain deadly combinations pop out.
why bother
the best defence is offence. kill everything before they kill you.
i've learned to embrace it and enjoy it.
on the extreme side of things, there was a person on reddit, did ubers a hundred times? when asked to share her build, people were shocked to see her hp was under 3k?
who need defense when she takes down ubers in seconds?
i hope GGG reads these ^
Innocence forgives you
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alhazred70 wrote:
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jack_aubrey wrote:
Slow is not fun and with a game like PoE, there will always be a "speed meta." Complaining about it is stupid when Ruthless exists.
So listen to how you sound: "just play ultra stingy mode that requires 1000x more grinding than an already GRINDY AF game: if you want.....
engaging... combat... ???
Ruthless improves combat moderately for a few days or weeks per league because you don't have the ability to teleport yourself out of every positional mistake and your skills are under scaled because you lack supports. Thats about the extent of it... this is not engaging combat and everyone who wants engaging combat does not also want a 1000x grind multiplier, aweful map sustain and the gutted Ruthless Atlas tree which looks more like someone vandalized the data files by deleting stuff than it looks like a thoughtfully designed game system.
You really captured some of my thoughts about how Ruthless is not really a solution to the core issues.
I wish people would realize by making the combat more engaging and deliberate, balancing the game around having balanced characters, and balancing LOOT around that combat is beneficial and does not mean "we want to destroy your gameplay. just no loot or speed."
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Posted byKaboinglefop#0955on Jun 12, 2023, 2:49:20 AM
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Draegnarrr wrote:
It isn't complicated really they just need to remember that speed is its own reward without mechanics directly rewarding speed as well.
Take legion for example, not only does a fast character get significantly more loot, they also encounter the mechanic faster. The result is a fast character isn't getting a linear increase as they should.
Simplest solutions to this are things like expedition where your initial choice is just that, a choice, rather than being based on character speed to begin with. Fast characters still clear the encounter they setup faster as they should but they aren't double dipping due to their speed.
Players generally behave like any suggestion of removing speed is terrible and it'll go to just being snail paced but it really won't, speed is the core precept of ARPG design as its the most noticeable form of player power. Even in "slower games" a good character goes far faster than a slow one and its focused as a stat after a certain point.
GGG don't always screw their paradigm up either a great deal of the speed meta is actually how player mentality and approach to the game has changed over time. I think measuring anything in div/hr is completely degenerate for example but it has become increasingly popular for players to focus speed in search of a higher and higher currency earner.
My old man yells at cloud moment about all this is GGG have created, permitted and encouraged far too many crutches for a game purported to have challenging endgame and crutches just feed the speed demon. Just look at mageblood, its ludicrously rare/expensive while simultaneously allowing you to run even a shit build at maximum speed once you get it. Its no wonder players focus on earnings and going faster and faster.
Idk who at GGG needs to hear this, but QFT.
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Posted byinnervation#4093on Jun 12, 2023, 2:55:33 AM
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innervation wrote:
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Draegnarrr wrote:
It isn't complicated really they just need to remember that speed is its own reward without mechanics directly rewarding speed as well.
Take legion for example, not only does a fast character get significantly more loot, they also encounter the mechanic faster. The result is a fast character isn't getting a linear increase as they should.
Simplest solutions to this are things like expedition where your initial choice is just that, a choice, rather than being based on character speed to begin with. Fast characters still clear the encounter they setup faster as they should but they aren't double dipping due to their speed.
Players generally behave like any suggestion of removing speed is terrible and it'll go to just being snail paced but it really won't, speed is the core precept of ARPG design as its the most noticeable form of player power. Even in "slower games" a good character goes far faster than a slow one and its focused as a stat after a certain point.
GGG don't always screw their paradigm up either a great deal of the speed meta is actually how player mentality and approach to the game has changed over time. I think measuring anything in div/hr is completely degenerate for example but it has become increasingly popular for players to focus speed in search of a higher and higher currency earner.
My old man yells at cloud moment about all this is GGG have created, permitted and encouraged far too many crutches for a game purported to have challenging endgame and crutches just feed the speed demon. Just look at mageblood, its ludicrously rare/expensive while simultaneously allowing you to run even a shit build at maximum speed once you get it. Its no wonder players focus on earnings and going faster and faster.
Idk who at GGG needs to hear this, but QFT.
The standard bar for player speed is incredibly high.
Since the floor is so high, the floor for monster speed must be high, resulting in the absolute visual mess of a game we keep getting on league drops.
Every time GGG tries to introduce well nuanced combat mechanics with rares, magics, etc. it just devolves into trying to dead it before it deads you. Because they've essentially designed themselves into a trap where they need to make these monsters unreasonably durable and fast (Which results in glitchy looking combat) just to balance around the player speed. Making this tedious != making the combat engaging. (This goes doubly so for the suggestions that ruthless/ssf is a solution)
Last edited by Kaboinglefop#0955 on Jun 12, 2023, 3:02:06 AM
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Posted byKaboinglefop#0955on Jun 12, 2023, 3:01:18 AM
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Kaboinglefop wrote:
A lot of the combat has lost its meaning. I don't like dps checks, I like mechanics checks.
100% agree. A game should be built around being beatable with 1HP, no matter how brutally difficult it is. That means the player will not under any circumstance take any source of guaranteed damage, nor should anything ever be sped up to the point that it exceeds human reaction times (roughly 200ms). It's bad because of scaling. It's alright to increase the monsters attack speed and have interesting debuffs on maps, but I think the numbers are just cranked up way too high.
Oh before I forget, there is also no room for jank like offscreen hits.
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Kaboinglefop wrote:
I believe you can have interesting builds without devolving the combat of an arpg to a clicking simulator where you have 0 visual clarity.
That's the price we're paying for wanting to kill lots of stuff quickly. I mean we have to because the rates on just about everything are pretty bad unless you juice the hell out of your maps. We all love large pack sizes and good loot, but again with scaling things spiral out of control. The game and it's drop rates are then balanced around it which creates the need for speed.
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Kaboinglefop wrote:
Zoom meta also brought about some of the worst shitty monster balancing. AN was a good idea, but our characters speed is too obscene for it to have worked.
AN is alright for the most part imo. I really only have issues with insanely tanky enemies. There's no fun in spamming skills on an enemy which has such high defenses and regen that it takes forever for them to die. It also just doesn't make sense to have enemies in a map that are stronger by a magnitude of 20x than the actual boss.
However I do want to add that while this game has it's quirks it's also a big part of why it's so insanely fun. Think about it, do you think Blizzard would ever let a player have 1000% movement speed permanently? They could nerf the hell out of this and have a much cleaner experience but I love this game because I can utterly break it. There's not many games left that let you do that.
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Posted byDarkKaine#0957on Jun 12, 2023, 8:54:19 AM
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