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Unfortunately, "just play a slow build on ruthless" again is not a solution. And the core issue, although player speed, is compounded with the LEVEL OF PLAYER SPEED WE GET as well as the BALANCING GGG IS FORCED TO DO TO MAKE THE GAME FUNCTIONAL AROUND THAT SPEED...
And the core issue with zoom meta is NOT the speed itself, but rather the poor league mechanic and monster balance that comes hand in hand with having to balance around the severe character speed.
Increasing character speed as part of the power progression is GOOD.
But it needs to be reined in by a severe amount, and monster loot + speed + damage as well as combat visual communication needs to be better adjusted.
Last edited by Kaboinglefop on Jun 11, 2023, 7:47:40 AM
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Posted byKaboinglefopon Jun 11, 2023, 7:26:14 AM
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HH encourages zoom meta.
Timed leagues necessitate the zoom meta.
In order for us to do something about this incessant need to go fast, GGG first needs to stop adding content that punishes you for not being fast enough, as in remove the timers in these problem leagues. After that, rework or remove the chase unique that turns any non-summoner build into a 1-minute mapping nightmare.
Game needs to slow down and they need to buff drop rates. If they don't buff drops, it will be the worst scenario.
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Posted byTorsteinTheFallenon Jun 11, 2023, 2:43:41 PM
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HH encourages zoom meta.
Timed leagues necessitate the zoom meta.
In order for us to do something about this incessant need to go fast, GGG first needs to stop adding content that punishes you for not being fast enough, as in remove the timers in these problem leagues. After that, rework or remove the chase unique that turns any non-summoner build into a 1-minute mapping nightmare.
Game needs to slow down and they need to buff drop rates. If they don't buff drops, it will be the worst scenario.
Agreed, the incentive system needs a bit of a revamp.
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Posted byKaboinglefopon Jun 11, 2023, 4:38:05 PM
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It isn't complicated really they just need to remember that speed is its own reward without mechanics directly rewarding speed as well.
Take legion for example, not only does a fast character get significantly more loot, they also encounter the mechanic faster. The result is a fast character isn't getting a linear increase as they should.
Simplest solutions to this are things like expedition where your initial choice is just that, a choice, rather than being based on character speed to begin with. Fast characters still clear the encounter they setup faster as they should but they aren't double dipping due to their speed.
Players generally behave like any suggestion of removing speed is terrible and it'll go to just being snail paced but it really won't, speed is the core precept of ARPG design as its the most noticeable form of player power. Even in "slower games" a good character goes far faster than a slow one and its focused as a stat after a certain point.
GGG don't always screw their paradigm up either a great deal of the speed meta is actually how player mentality and approach to the game has changed over time. I think measuring anything in div/hr is completely degenerate for example but it has become increasingly popular for players to focus speed in search of a higher and higher currency earner.
My old man yells at cloud moment about all this is GGG have created, permitted and encouraged far too many crutches for a game purported to have challenging endgame and crutches just feed the speed demon. Just look at mageblood, its ludicrously rare/expensive while simultaneously allowing you to run even a shit build at maximum speed once you get it. Its no wonder players focus on earnings and going faster and faster.
There are some great mechanics that reward slower pace, etc.
big problem is how much of the game is balanced around the average speed.
more speed is good, but the literal baseline being a devolution of in-depth combat (in an ACTION R P G) is not really good.
As a result, SSFHC, SSF experience sort of suffers as well as Ruthless.
I certainly hope the conspiracies that Ruthless is the testing ground for PoE2 will rain true, and PoE2 will be a giant reset button.
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Posted byKaboinglefopon Jun 11, 2023, 8:18:30 PM
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Can someone actually come with those "good mechanics" they keep talking about instead of just moaning about zoom meta? Or better yet, how will them simply delete power creep, which they seem to be intentionally ramping like a truck without breaks?
The answer is: Ruthless. Have fun there.
To some extent Ruthless is the answer, the issue is that Ruthless is ALSO conflated with being "the hardest mod possible"
I personally am playing ruthless but its insanely stripped out and I hate that.
I hate the map sustain
I hate the Atlas tree got gutted and is almost all numbers and most of the FUN WAS DELETED
I liked the removal of Div cards in 3.20 ruthless but now after 2+ months of 3.21 and switching to SSF ruthless:
I HATE THE REMOVAL OF DIV CARDS. what changed? Thats easy: I realized that without Div cards there's a LOT less reason to be excited about what map you're trying to run, favoriting maps is not purely about the layout and that gets boring REALLY FUCKING FAST.
Ruthless is not "slower more engaging combat mode of POE" its got slower combat sure until you get zoomy support gems and movement speed.... but that only lasts a time.
The way for POE2 to have actually engaging combat is to fork POE1 style combat into its own "zooom zoom" mode. Adjust drop rates so that slower engaging combat POE can actually feel decently rewarding and let it be its own thing.
I expect that Chris and the gang have discussed this many times over the last 6 or 7 leagues of constantly toxic clear speed meta /Reddit shitting on GGG,... there's no way they don't know they need to fork zoomer mode and "engaging combat" mode.
"only 10% of players care about melee" - Aesop's Fox if he was a GGG dev
"when you die in this game, typically you're getting one shot, you're dieing in one frame; almost always" -Ben_ Last edited by alhazred70 on Jun 11, 2023, 9:46:36 PM
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Posted byalhazred70on Jun 11, 2023, 9:41:38 PM
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Can someone actually come with those "good mechanics" they keep talking about instead of just moaning about zoom meta? Or better yet, how will them simply delete power creep, which they seem to be intentionally ramping like a truck without breaks?
The answer is: Ruthless. Have fun there.
To some extent Ruthless is the answer, the issue is that Ruthless is ALSO conflated with being "the hardest mod possible"
Ruthless solves nothing imo, its just another oil that won't coalesce with everything else while the bucket it was poured into never got any bigger.
I need player retention in the core leagues to stabilize, its getting worse and if PoE2 doesn't turn things around the very last thing we need is to seperate the playerbase even more.
If the economy is too bloated then add mechanics to clean it up, i have been asking GGG for this for years based on many discussions with hardcore and standard as well as league-players from both sides and without some method of getting rid of the bloat this was always going to happen and will happen in every game mode they add until they fix the real problem
Innocence forgives you Last edited by SilentSymphony on Jun 11, 2023, 10:14:07 PM
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Posted bySilentSymphonyon Jun 11, 2023, 9:53:37 PM
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Can someone actually come with those "good mechanics" they keep talking about instead of just moaning about zoom meta? Or better yet, how will them simply delete power creep, which they seem to be intentionally ramping like a truck without breaks?
The answer is: Ruthless. Have fun there.
To some extent Ruthless is the answer, the issue is that Ruthless is ALSO conflated with being "the hardest mod possible"
Ruthless solves nothing, its just another oil that won't coalesce with everything else while the bucket it was poured into never got any bigger.
I feel like you're getting too metaphorical here my dude. Also too binary. Ruthless fixes POE's ground loot quite adequately a lot of systems in the game that are buried in obsolescence in basic mode, are actually useful and thoughtful design in Ruthless (because many of these items were designed for this kind of play).
Chance orbs for example. You're never going to have Captain Lances "quit the game orbs" problem with them, they actually serve their purpose without being what they have become in basic mode. Which is 20,000 click T0 unique makers that give wrist injuries.
But none of this is to say that it solves everything which is why i used the phrasing "to some extent" in that is solves some things, but is far far from perfect not even close, and is actually a terrible solution for "average players" who also want engaging combat and not this silly over the top thing basic mode turned into.
"only 10% of players care about melee" - Aesop's Fox if he was a GGG dev
"when you die in this game, typically you're getting one shot, you're dieing in one frame; almost always" -Ben_ Last edited by alhazred70 on Jun 11, 2023, 10:16:05 PM
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Posted byalhazred70on Jun 11, 2023, 10:04:53 PM
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Can someone actually come with those "good mechanics" they keep talking about instead of just moaning about zoom meta? Or better yet, how will them simply delete power creep, which they seem to be intentionally ramping like a truck without breaks?
The answer is: Ruthless. Have fun there.
To some extent Ruthless is the answer, the issue is that Ruthless is ALSO conflated with being "the hardest mod possible"
Ruthless solves nothing, its just another oil that won't coalesce with everything else while the bucket it was poured into never got any bigger.
I feel like you're getting too metaphorical here my dude. Also too binary. Ruthless fixes POE's ground loot quite adequately a lot of systems in the game that are buried in obsolescence in basic mode, are actually useful and thoughtful design in Ruthless (because many of these items were designed for this kind of play).
Chance orbs for example. You're never going to have Captain Lances "quit the game orbs" problem with them, they actually serve their purpose without being what they have become in basic mode. Which is 20,000 click T0 unique makers that give wrist injuries.
But none of this is to say that it solves everything which is why i used the phrasing "to some extent" in that is solves some things, but is far far from perfect not even close, and is actually a terrible solution for "average players" who also want engaging combat and not this silly over the top thing basic mode turned into.
bolded what I feel captures how I feel about all the "go play ruthless/d2" stans who auto-reply to anyone who does not like the speed creep.
+1
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Posted byKaboinglefopon Jun 11, 2023, 10:20:42 PM
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I feel like you're getting too metaphorical here my dude. Also too binary. Ruthless fixes POE's ground loot quite adequately a lot of systems in the game that are buried in obsolescence in basic mode, are actually useful and thoughtful design in Ruthless (because many of these items were designed for this kind of play).
Chance orbs for example. You're never going to have Captain Lances "quit the game orbs" problem with them, they actually serve their purpose without being what they have become in basic mode. Which is 20,000 click T0 unique makers that give wrist injuries.
But none of this is to say that it solves everything which is why i used the phrasing "to some extent" in that is solves some things, but is far far from perfect not even close, and is actually a terrible solution for "average players" who also want engaging combat and not this silly over the top thing basic mode turned into.
The absolute perfect solution, I don't know what it is.
I just want to have fun and be able to play an entire league without the economy being completely dead, I think this was my worst league historically and im no spring onion when it comes to knowing my options, ssf never really interested me and i've always kind of enjoyed helping others so i get the most opportunity to do that in Standard-Challenge-League, if my frustrations came out here its probably just because i wanted so badly for hardcore and standard to see a solution by GGG that would unite us not take us further apart.
So my apologies if i came off as antagonistic in any of my previous posts.
Innocence forgives you Last edited by SilentSymphony on Jun 11, 2023, 10:26:10 PM
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Posted bySilentSymphonyon Jun 11, 2023, 10:25:11 PM
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Slow is not fun and with a game like PoE, there will always be a "speed meta." Complaining about it is stupid when Ruthless exists.
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Posted byjack_aubreyon Jun 11, 2023, 10:58:43 PM
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