The Self Found League

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DijiGo wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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DijiGo wrote:

Wouldn't a "mass exodus" imply that the vast majority of players are already trading "under duress" so to speak?

That's preposterous. Surely you recognize that the average PoE player trades willingly for items such as drop-only and high-quality gems, if nothing else; only a small minority actually desire a pure self-found mode.

I'm not even sure what you are arguing at this point.

If "only a small minority actually desire a pure self-found mode" then there WON"T BE a mass exodus.
A mass exodus implies > majority abandon ship > implies majority unhappy with the current model.

That's the whole point.

The scare-mongering implying that a SFL would destroy the game, or "ruin it for everybody" (your words) is the barrow that YOU have been pushing.

And now you are completely reversing your position? WTF

I'm not reversing at all. What I'm saying is that most players don't trade much, but trade sometimes. So they're going to have increased drop rates in one hand, and the ability to trade for Multistrike (or whatever minor thing it is they care about trading for) in the other. So if this suggestion includes a drop rate increase, you're going to have loads of people sacrificing something they care about in exchange for more drops, hence a mass exodus. This is a sacrifice I don't believe we have to make; it would be smarter to simply fix trading (and possibly drop rates) in the existing leagues and leave self-found as an optional, unofficial challenge.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

So if this suggestion includes a drop rate increase, you're going to have loads of people sacrificing something they care about in exchange for more drops, hence a mass exodus.

Give up something they care about? Sorry but LMFAO.

Find me one post, anywhere in this thread or on the entire board for that matter, from someone who says they "enjoy trading" or "care about trading", AND would sacrifice it all for a SFL.

Just one will do...

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DijiGo wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

So if this suggestion includes a drop rate increase, you're going to have loads of people sacrificing something they care about in exchange for more drops, hence a mass exodus.

Give up something they care about? Sorry but LMFAO.

Find me one post, anywhere in this thread or on the entire board for that matter, from someone who says they "enjoy trading" or "care about trading", AND would sacrifice it all for a SFL.

Just one will do...

Depends on the drop rate increase implemented. I doubt very many would sacrifice it for nothing, so it depends on the payoff.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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DijiGo wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

So if this suggestion includes a drop rate increase, you're going to have loads of people sacrificing something they care about in exchange for more drops, hence a mass exodus.

Give up something they care about? Sorry but LMFAO.

Find me one post, anywhere in this thread or on the entire board for that matter, from someone who says they "enjoy trading" or "care about trading", AND would sacrifice it all for a SFL.

Just one will do...

Depends on the drop rate increase implemented. I doubt very many would sacrifice it for nothing, so it depends on the payoff.

So, let me get this straight:

- only a small minority actually desire a pure self-found mode
- there will still be a mass exodus from the trading leagues, according to you
- the mass exodus depends on the RNG changes being good enough to convert the non-SFL majority
- GGG will therefore have to change the RNG for SFL enough to create this mass exodus, they will do this WILLINGLY, and decimate their own economy, because you say it is inevitable.

You win, I'm out.

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DijiGo wrote:

So, let me get this straight:

- only a small minority actually desire a pure self-found mode
- there will still be a mass exodus from the trading leagues, according to you
- the mass exodus depends on the RNG changes being good enough to convert the non-SFL majority
- GGG will therefore have to change the RNG for SFL enough to create this mass exodus, they will do this WILLINGLY, and decimate their own economy, because you say it is inevitable.

The thing is, it wouldn't take a lot of extra drop-rate to make it a really hard decision for many. I think the vast majority of SFL supporters in this thread desire significant drop-rate increases; for SFL to work, it would instead need carefully balanced, actually rather minor drop-rate increases, or no drop-rate increase whatsoever.

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DijiGo wrote:

Find me one post, anywhere in this thread or on the entire board for that matter, from someone who says they "enjoy trading" or "care about trading"

Perhaps I should have been more clear. When I spoke of the effects of a mass exodus on people who enjoy trading, I thought it was clear that "enjoy trading" meant "enjoy having the option to trade". Guess I failed to communicate effectively.


As far as

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Yeah, unfortunately, the Barter Economy is part of the "Core Design" and I've been told by a couple of people "this game is not for you!"... I've finally capitulated =)

goes, that's an area where doub t you and I will see eye to eye. I personally think a barter economy is far more interesting. The problem with the one in PoE is players refusing to let it be what it is, which all comes back to currency items. Item for item trades are far more interesting, in my view, and those kind of trades require barter.

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Thaelyn wrote:

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I do think though that the disagreement goes beyond the mere scale to which players abandon other leagues and flock to SFL. Scrotie holds the belief that a large exodus to SFL would be a bad thing, whereas I'm convinced that even if everyone went to SFL that this is not inherently bad. If everyone, or just mostly everyone, would prefer SFL then how is harm being done by providing it.

Let's, for the sake of discussing this quote, assume that Scrotie is correct about a mass exodus from trading leagues. This would, in my opinion, be bad for the game. It relegates players who enjoy trade to precisely the same position we self found players find ourselves in now. I'm not looking to destroy someone else's playstyle in order to improve my own.

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emtwo wrote:

As I said though, even if drop rates were exactly the same I would be giddy to join a SFL and would play it exclusively.

Just for clarification, emtwo, I have to ask why SFL as a separate league is important to you given what you've said in this quote. As snapple99 said, if that's all you're after then you can have exactly that right now.

While I don't pretend to put words in your mouth here, that position makes sense to me only as a desire to dictate that others play the same way as you. I can't speak for anyone but myself but that's not what I personally think a self found league is, or should be, about. The entire problem, as I see it, is that trade so heavily influences the way the existing leagues are set up that it's as though GGG is trying to forcefully shove us into it whether we like it or not. I don't think the solution to that is to forceibly shove everyone else into our preference.

Creating a SFL is not forcing everyone else to stop trading; this is completely irrational. Trading would still be several times easier to acquire gear/gems for a specific build even if drop rates were increased in SF.

I don't want bragging rights, I don't give a shit how hardcore people think I am. I want a Self-Found League for the same reasons people want a HC league rather than just deleting their SC characters after one death. HC players don't want SC players joining their games and ruining the HC atmosphere by zerging bosses or hard areas, which is why it's a separate league. Similarly, SF players like myself want their own league so that trading players don't join and destroy the challenge of SF with min/maxed trade gear and gems.

It's not about bragging rights or forcing people to play how I want, it's simply about having an opportunity to play with people who are looking for a similar challenge, just like HC players have that opportunity in HC league.

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emtwo wrote:

Let's, for the sake of discussing this quote, assume that Scrotie is correct about a mass exodus from trading leagues. This would, in my opinion, be bad for the game. It relegates players who enjoy trade to precisely the same position we self found players find ourselves in now. I'm not looking to destroy someone else's playstyle in order to improve my own.

As long as we remember that "the economy" is a full-on, no rules PvP zone then there is a fundamental problem here. Like all PvP games, the PK's want newbies to gank. The newbies would prefer to not be on the dinner menu. There is an inherent conflict of interests going on. Life looks different if you're the lion or the gazelle. So yes, I suspect there is a conflict and it's the same conflict that has always existed (with many of the same non-arguments) between PvP and PvE for as long as I can remember.

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entire problem, as I see it, is that trade so heavily influences the way the existing leagues are set up that it's as though GGG is trying to forcefully shove us into it whether we like it or not. I don't think the solution to that is to forceibly shove everyone else into our preference.

This is why I think "the economy" as a whole is not a benefit to the ARPG genre. Once you have one you kind of need to balance against it. Once you've balanced against it you're screwed from a hack & slash perspective. That's why I can't come up with an answer for "ways to facilitate trading that don't harm the economy". As long as harming the economy takes precedence over harming Piety the whole situation is simply fubar.

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Creating a SFL is not forcing everyone else to stop trading; this is completely irrational. Trading would still be several times easier to acquire gear/gems for a specific build even if drop rates were increased in SF.

Gosh, is it too much to ask to simply have GGG do a freakin design? We are not talking ouija boards here. They must already have some idea for what sort of gear should be available at what levels. I'd just like them to tune drop rates to facilitate that. In other words, I'd like it to be the same or slightly less efficient than trading. I'd like the only benefit to be avoiding unwanted "player tension". I personally suspect a lot of people would like to avoid "player tension".

(as an aside, that phrase is becoming on of my new favorites. What a cool way to say "mandatory PvP").

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It's not about bragging rights or forcing people to play how I want, it's simply about having an opportunity to play with people who are looking for a similar challenge, just like HC players have that opportunity in HC league.

This is "the other side" (from me anyway) of self-found. You're seeing this as some sort of "challenge". I'm seeing it simply as "retuning the game to focus more on hacking & slashing.

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Creating a SFL is not forcing everyone else to stop trading; this is completely irrational. Trading would still be several times easier to acquire gear/gems for a specific build even if drop rates were increased in SF.

Therein ies the core of the disagreement with Scrotie, in my opinion. It would, indeed, depend on the overall balance between the two playstyles. This isn't a simple numbers game here. Human nature *is* going to play a role in the effects of any changes GGG may make along these lines. If those changes resulted in the vast majority of players choosing SFL over trading leagues, then the playstyle that is predominant now suffers and that's not what I am trying to achieve. That's all I'm saying here.

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I don't want bragging rights, I don't give a shit how hardcore people think I am. I want a Self-Found League for the same reasons people want a HC league rather than just deleting their SC characters after one death. HC players don't want SC players joining their games and ruining the HC atmosphere by zerging bosses or hard areas, which is why it's a separate league. Similarly, SF players like myself want their own league so that trading players don't join and destroy the challenge of SF with min/maxed trade gear and gems.

This is what I'm having difficulty with regarding your position, emtwo. Reading this it looks as though your position is less about making self found closer to trade in terms of viability and more about knowing that other people get where they are via a method you approve of. I personally think the former is healthy for the game and the latter detrimental.

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It's not about bragging rights or forcing people to play how I want, it's simply about having an opportunity to play with people who are looking for a similar challenge, just like HC players have that opportunity in HC league.

Given what I said above, I think you have that opportunity right now. There are plenty of people in this thread who obviously share the desire for self found play. The only thing missing is your approval of other people's play, based on what I'm getting from your posts. If I'm missing something I apologize. Clearly, though, I'm having a hard time reconciling what you're saying with what I, personally, consider to be the point of SFL.

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Thaelyn wrote:

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Creating a SFL is not forcing everyone else to stop trading; this is completely irrational. Trading would still be several times easier to acquire gear/gems for a specific build even if drop rates were increased in SF.

Therein ies the core of the disagreement with Scrotie, in my opinion. It would, indeed, depend on the overall balance between the two playstyles. This isn't a simple numbers game here. Human nature *is* going to play a role in the effects of any changes GGG may make along these lines. If those changes resulted in the vast majority of players choosing SFL over trading leagues, then the playstyle that is predominant now suffers and that's not what I am trying to achieve. That's all I'm saying here.

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I don't want bragging rights, I don't give a shit how hardcore people think I am. I want a Self-Found League for the same reasons people want a HC league rather than just deleting their SC characters after one death. HC players don't want SC players joining their games and ruining the HC atmosphere by zerging bosses or hard areas, which is why it's a separate league. Similarly, SF players like myself want their own league so that trading players don't join and destroy the challenge of SF with min/maxed trade gear and gems.

This is what I'm having difficulty with regarding your position, emtwo. Reading this it looks as though your position is less about making self found closer to trade in terms of viability and more about knowing that other people get where they are via a method you approve of. I personally think the former is healthy for the game and the latter detrimental.

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It's not about bragging rights or forcing people to play how I want, it's simply about having an opportunity to play with people who are looking for a similar challenge, just like HC players have that opportunity in HC league.

Given what I said above, I think you have that opportunity right now. There are plenty of people in this thread who obviously share the desire for self found play. The only thing missing is your approval of other people's play, based on what I'm getting from your posts. If I'm missing something I apologize. Clearly, though, I'm having a hard time reconciling what you're saying with what I, personally, consider to be the point of SFL.

I have no desire to be the arbiter of how other people should play. I don't care enough to approve or disapprove of how others choose to play the game. The simple fact is that if I'm playing Self-Found and someone who isn't joins my game, they will completely trivialize the challenge and the atmosphere of my game. This is why HC has their own league. It's not (contrary to popular belief) so that they can sit in ivory towers and call SC players scrubs, it's so that SC players don't join their game and trivialize the challenge of HC.

I simply want to play a challenging hack&slash game. That's it. Trading detracts from that by trivializing difficulty for those that spend time trading and indirectly punishes those who choose not to trade because the game is balanced around trading. There is no way to "fix" trading because of this dichotomy, so I just want a chance to opt out. It's that simple.