Time Capsule from PoE Closed Beta -- a classic PoE vs D3 thread circa 2012

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kodr wrote:

Titan Quest had a better tree, that's why it's #2 in my top HnS list.
PoE is #3 only because Torchlight didn't have multiplayer.

Well then you must be waiting on torchlight 2 ;) They are adding multiplayer in that one.

Yep I do :)
Too bad there isn't much information about the game yet, like skill tree and stuff.
But it seems there's a lot more content than TL1, more bosses, more acts, and multiplayer... can't wait :)

It makes me genuinely sad that a thread that (very surprisingly, very pleasantly) generated a lot of discussion, from both sides of the fence, has had its creation questioned. Very sad indeed.

johnschroeder: you're right, I didn't address that directly, but it's implicit throughout a lot of what I say. Particularly when I say that Diablo 3 has removed the real essence of Diablo: not the clickfest, but what you do before and after. The before is the planning, the meticulous research if you want, the build envisioning. In short, the creation of the goal. Now that goal cannot be merely end-game. It has to have increments to be interesting. Saying 'oho, there's that skill at level 40 I need to make this build!' is all fine and well, but what do you do from 1-39? Play a different build? Maybe, but generally I'd rather play 1-39 in the spirit of the forthcoming level 40 skill.

That's exactly what I did with the staff assassin (monk) I described earlier. Ribcracker at 31 WAS the goal (with a Shael in it, of course!), but it didn't change how I played. I was still dragon-flying in there, building up cobra charges and discharging with the right kick (I can say it's dragon Talon, after a quick google) to return all that much-needed mana. I just did it a LOT quicker with crushing blow and crazy IAS.

That's probably my core point in this regard. Your build, the one you have planned, should not start mid-game and certainly not late-game. It should be augmented by things then available, but the essence of it should be doable (if certainly not optimal) very early on.

^ Yeah, I think I can say I completely agree with you now.
However, I think that diablo 3 is just kind of a different game. In fact, I think it's more along the lines of guild wars (1)'s skill system and mechanics.

I think the game will be alot harder this time around in the final difficulties and so will offer more challenge and gameplay there. Guild wars 1's pvE was still fun even though you were max level and had all the skills at your disposal. Diablo 3's focus will simply be (even) more on items than it was in diablo 2. Not to mension that, this time around, it will give much more satisfaction for clearing certain areas. For example: Blizzard said that right now, straying from the group when playing with multiple people* is VERY deadly.

This is quite different from it's predecessor, but I have faith in blizzard and I think they will make it work.

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CharanJaydemyr wrote:

The before is the planning, the meticulous research if you want, the build envisioning. In short, the creation of the goal. Now that goal cannot be merely end-game. It has to have increments to be interesting. Saying 'oho, there's that skill at level 40 I need to make this build!' is all fine and well, but what do you do from 1-39? Play a different build? Maybe, but generally I'd rather play 1-39 in the spirit of the forthcoming level 40 skill.

It was also like that in Diablo2, you couldn't do your frozen orb sorc right away, you had to level up to 30 to unlock the skill.
What's changed is that you can try different skills and gameplay as you level up, which break the monotony.

There's still some planning involved, you can't throw random skills to make a build.
Take a look at this website.

As for me, I really discovered the skills when I tried to get a spot in the beta by doing the diablofans contest where you had to post a build. I took a closer look at the skills and understood what they were trying to do. That's what motivated me to do my skill calculator (the one on the official website is kinda crappy).

Thanks for the post kodr.
That website does make me even more excited for diablo 3.
There's actually a ton of possible build options really.

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kodr wrote:

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CharanJaydemyr wrote:

The before is the planning, the meticulous research if you want, the build envisioning. In short, the creation of the goal. Now that goal cannot be merely end-game. It has to have increments to be interesting. Saying 'oho, there's that skill at level 40 I need to make this build!' is all fine and well, but what do you do from 1-39? Play a different build? Maybe, but generally I'd rather play 1-39 in the spirit of the forthcoming level 40 skill.

It was also like that in Diablo2, you couldn't do your frozen orb sorc right away, you had to level up to 30 to unlock the skill.
What's changed is that you can try different skills and gameplay as you level up, which break the monotony.

There's still some planning involved, you can't throw random skills to make a build.
Take a look at this website.

As for me, I really discovered the skill when I tried to get a spot in the beta by doing the diablofans contest where you had to post a build. I took a closer look at the skill and understood what they were trying to do. That's what motivated me to do my skill calculator (the one on the official website is kinda crappy).

You're just talking about one build there, and I might note the one that smells the most of blue vein cheese. I wouldn't use Frozen Orb *in and of itself* but instead as the final evolution of the Ice sorceress. I cannot stress enough that I build thematically -- you'll note that I didn't build a 'cobra strike' assassin, nor did I call her 'a dragon talon' assassin. These were just skills she used to make the overall idea work. It all hinged on using an item with a class most people didn't: the staff. Making that work was always the goal, regardless of the skills required to do so.



That link only reinforces what I'm arguing. Those builds are far, far from the diversity found in even Barbarian builds of D2. I was always fond of the Bard-barian, who dual-wielded wands to buff his shouts. Done right, you could shout Baal to death. Pretty funny, that. In contrast, the builds in that link are all doing the same thing. They're gameplay builds: they focus on AoE, life regen, blah blah blah. I couldn't be less impressed. I really couldn't. To me, build diversity is in the method, not the goal. I have the feeling this is a basic difference in approach between myself (and certain other posters here) and you, and likely Tagek to a degree.

I don't see many different builds in that link, just different configurations of the same few builds.

And Tagek: you hit level 20 REAL quick in Guild Wars 1. It wasn't even a milestone. The monsters kept getting harder -- you as a player had to get better real quick. Diablo 3 (please don't compare the two games again if you can help it, seriously) is still placing the top level quite a ways into the experience. You likely won't even hit it until at least near the end of nightmare.

And yeah, they'll make it work. Of course they will. But I've pointed out more than enough changes to justify why a certain breed of Diablo fan would be turned off, will be turned off, changes that Path of Exile did not make -- including what could easily be termed as improvements, such as doing away with global mana, ID scrolls, etc. etc.

It was pretty long before hitting level 20 in Propheties when they launched GW1, maybe 40h I think.

As for the builds, I don't say they are the best (I didn't even take a look at them) but you can do different things. Each skill has its own gameplay, that's what is interesting for me.

I wanted to post some of mine, but Blizzard changed their calc url and the skills order is completely screwed (maybe that's why those build aren't interesting anymore)

To me, the pacing in GW was fine. It actually took a decent amount of time to get to 20, and then it became challenging in some ways. I think diablo 3 will offer the same sort of increased challenge to keep you playing when you have finished the previous content.

Also, the reason I compared D3 with GW is because their skill systems basically work exactly the same.
You have (practically) all skills unlocked, and choose a few of them to use in battle. You can't really change them while out on a mission, but afterwards you are free to do so whenever you like.
Ok, GW has ability points, but the function of ability points is filled by gear in D3, which doesn't exist in GW.

yeah, it took me a good amount of time too.
I think it was faster in Factions and Nightfall though.
For D3, yeah... monsters are level 61 and more in Inferno.