Time Capsule from PoE Closed Beta -- a classic PoE vs D3 thread circa 2012

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Avireyn wrote:

Anyway, moving and aiming in WoW work completely different from moving/aiming in ARPGs, be it PoE or Diablo.

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Avireyn wrote:

That this doesn't work should be obvious. And even if it did: You'd have to completely redesign the game to work with your new controls.

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GusTheCrocodile wrote:

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Avireyn wrote:

Anyway, moving and aiming in WoW work completely different from moving/aiming in ARPGs, be it PoE or Diablo.

Not a sound statement, because ARPGs are not defined by their movement/aiming controls. See Hellgate.

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GusTheCrocodile wrote:

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Avireyn wrote:

That this doesn't work should be obvious. And even if it did: You'd have to completely redesign the game to work with your new controls.

No, you wouldn't. You put the movement controls somewhere else rather than on mouseclicks. Bam. Done. Nothing else needs redesigning. You could redesign some stuff if you wanted to, but it wouldn't be vital.

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GusTheCrocodile wrote:

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Tagek wrote:

In fact now that I think of it, it can't even work in D3 at all (or in any ARPG, rly). The only reason it works in wow is because you can combine it with your mouse to make movements that are infinitely precise. In D3 you can't do that, as you need your mouse buttons to use skills etc.

Yeah, but you don't actually need to be infinitely precise. I've played approximately two gazillion games with that kind of four-button movement, and while it's not sometimes not perfect, it's almost always workable.

It helps that if it's the default option, the world is usually built around it (Bastion, for instance, which is a wonderful game). But even without that, most games don't actually need more than eight directional movement, it just makes things a bit more comfortable.

Plus, bear in mind that once you have a direct-control option in place at all, you're not bound to only use four-button mappings. You can let players use, say, the "infinite precision" of a joystick if they want to. Again, I don't think I'd want to, but hey. Blizzard have talked about getting D3 onto consoles.

Of course, speaking seriously, there'd be plenty of other things I'd like worked on first than a direct-control movement option.

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Avireyn wrote:

Being able to attack while moving alone is a huge game-changer. You'd have to take that into account for your game, since it trivializes any ranged enemies. Oh, and melees.

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Avireyn wrote:

Secondly, in WoW you control your view with the mouse. WASD works relative from there. In an isometric game, your view is fixed. In relation to what do WASD work? Your screen or the direction your character is pointing? Does the mouse work as targetting reticule or does it control your character's direction?

Hellgate London, by the way, is not an isometric game (or even 2D), I'm not really sure why you bring it up.

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Tagek wrote:

Quit the contrary, how can you ever move and use abilities on 1-4 at the same time?

Sure, you can hotkey them to your mouse, but besides that being a little clunky, very few people have a mouse with that many buttons.

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Tagek wrote:

EDIT: And yeah, avireyn brings up a very solid point, being able to move while attacking completely breaks game balance, as the game is built to have you either run away or attack. Not both at the same time.
Imagine a wizard strafing backwards while casting ray of frost at you, 'Trololololol'.

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Avireyn wrote:

Maybe to bring this a bit back on track:

I noticed that the Diablo III beta had something in, I proposed for PoE: Small randomized encounters in several areas.

For example, the different cellars in the first area after New Tristram. There seems to be four or five different ones, but only 2 are in any game.

Or a tree with hanged people where an inordinate amount of zombies crawl out of the ground.
Or a crack in the earth where eerie light emanates - and which you can enter, revealing a mass grave with some treasure. Or the Den of the Fallen.

Honestly, those random mini-events felt awesome. I'm still not sure if I got to see them all in five playthroughs. They had me actively engaged, and eager to explore every corner of every map (even though over-all randomness of the areas was really disappointing to me).

Some triggered small pieces of character talk "I should have known this is a trap!", some had a Lore entry. Some just had you have a "that wasn't there the last time..." moment.


After experiencing them in Diablo III, I'm utterly convinced such small random elements would add so much to PoE.

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Tagek wrote:

Don't forget the Bishibosh easteregg within den of the fallen, that made it extra awesome! :P

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For lorefreaks like me, the lorescrolls also work the same way as you described. I found a couple lorescrolls that I hadn't found in my previous playthroughs, and I will be sure to explore every bit of every area in the full game now that I know how easily you can miss some of them.

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GusTheCrocodile wrote:

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Avireyn wrote:

Being able to attack while moving alone is a huge game-changer. You'd have to take that into account for your game, since it trivializes any ranged enemies. Oh, and melees.

You're not attacking while moving any more than you can now. You're just switching back into movement easier.

If that makes things easier, all that says to me is that there's an advantage to this kind of control. Which is a big step up from Tagek's "all it would do is gimp you". And if one control scheme is easier in some ways, who cares? Why is that a problem?

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Avireyn wrote:

Secondly, in WoW you control your view with the mouse. WASD works relative from there. In an isometric game, your view is fixed. In relation to what do WASD work? Your screen or the direction your character is pointing? Does the mouse work as targetting reticule or does it control your character's direction?

Hellgate London, by the way, is not an isometric game (or even 2D), I'm not really sure why you bring it up.

Go back and read the part of your post I was responding to. You didn't say isometric games, you said ARPGs. It was a bad generalisation to make.

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Tagek wrote:

Quit the contrary, how can you ever move and use abilities on 1-4 at the same time?

Sure, you can hotkey them to your mouse, but besides that being a little clunky, very few people have a mouse with that many buttons.

1. You can use your free finger or thumb. Wouldn't be my choice, my little finger isn't strong enough for quick reactions and my thumb is probably too far down (could possibly reach skills bound on CVBN, but it might be uncomfortable)
2. You simply stop moving in at least one direction for a slight moment, same as you already have to to go between attacking and picking a new spot to move with your mouse. I do that all the time hitting other keys in FPSs, it's really nothing.
3. You keep ignoring the fact that direct movement doesn't have to be on four buttons. You can use a controller's thumbstick instead, though that would probably require the targeting cursor to be able to be moved to the controller's other stick. Whiiiich you may as well do if you're doing it for movement anyway.

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Tagek wrote:

EDIT: And yeah, avireyn brings up a very solid point, being able to move while attacking completely breaks game balance, as the game is built to have you either run away or attack. Not both at the same time.
Imagine a wizard strafing backwards while casting ray of frost at you, 'Trololololol'.

Why on earth do you think that changing the movement controls suddenly lets you attack while moving? It's really simple. You move, then when you press attack, you stop moving for the duration of the attack, then you can move again. You know, pretty much exactly the way it works now.

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And about his 'generalisation', no need to make a big deal out of it, you know he meant diablo like games with an isometric view.