Since GGG forced lab down our throats, how about some protection from lab carries that quit or die?

"

Legatus1982 wrote:

"

Fruz wrote:

/rofl

Of course, you failed so it can't be possible.
I actually made the char after I saw you complain quite a lot about it, because I was curious.

The leveling was a of course breeze, completely.
I knew that saying that viper strike was bad against bosses was complete nonsense, but I wanted to see how strong it would actually be.

I switched to cyclone as a main setup, I could put viper strike back in a 4L and kill uber Izaro with it but ... I have other things to do with my time atm honestly.

No, it's definitely "possible", I just know for a fact that you didn't do it. The fact you respecced to cyclone is further evidence of my suspicions.

You did not level a character from level 1 to uber izaro using viper strike as your damage source throughout the leveling process in SSFHC. Prove you did it with a video and I'll change my mind.

Again, you apparently think I "failed" at something, just more antagonistic comments with no basis in reality whatsoever since you have never seen me play POE. But yes surely you are a mature person who isn't antagonistic and obnoxious *eyeroll*.

I delete all my characters at the end of every league so as far as you know I could be the world's best POE player (or the world's worst) and you'd have completely no idea whatsoever. I have no respect for your opinion at this point because you're constantly saying things you have no basis in reality for.

hahahaha

Let's go.


Anyway, any good player would clearly see very clearly that there is something wrong with how you were building, or playing with VP through the story as VP is more than correct against act bosses, and after that map bosses.

I dropped it because I don't like using multistrike, I don't like this gem, and at higher level it is required to optimize VS' dps.
The second reason is that Cyclone ended up outperforming it due to how quickly I managed to stack poisons, and there was no point keeping a single target dps setup anymore, so I eventually dropped it, it was meant to be a poison cyclone char after all ( as its name shows ).

There is likely more to be found in this thread, but that is enough to show what I wanted to show.
We could take a successful guide's content too :

"

Kiss_Me_Quick wrote:

This build is able to finish acts comfortably with it's original skill gems. Dual wielding is not worth it until you get Breath of The Council, meaning that you should start off with a shield.

Granted, there is HoA now, but that is not the main dmg source VS bosses.



TLDR : VP has not been bad against act bosses and following bosses for a long time, if ever. You just failed to build and use a proper character to realize this.
And if you find this simple fact antagonizing ... well lol, get a thicker skin dude.
This has gone a bit off-topic, but the fact out of this is that : One can kill Izaro with a correct Viper Strike setup without much troubles, even if the OP does not think so :

"

Legatus1982 wrote:

This is simply a result of poor balancing on gggs part. Granted any spell caster build should easily do all or most of the games normal content. This doesn't mean a viper strike or glacial hammer build in hc will want to try to fight uber izaro, even if they could deal with lagging on traps. It isn't a question of whether it can be done, it's a question of paying being an objectively better choice.

I'm pretty sure that I could go through all act bosses and at least white/yellow maps bosses + uber Izaro with a SSF glacial hammer character without much troubles, but I don't think that I have time for it.

"

VolcanoElixir wrote:

"

Are the 410+ threads asking for lab changes as well as a 750+ page thread about lab ascendancy points being separated from lab plus strawpoll an indication that there's a lot of people that don't like lab, or is it all a giant conspiracy theory and the largest feedback thread (haven't seen that one disproved yet) in POE history is a nothing-burger?

You won't like the answer I give: it's not a nothing-burger, but it was a burger that was already eaten a couple of years back. The heaviest amount of Lab criticism, myself included, came from before a major overhaul of the difficulty progression and nerfing of various buffs Izaro can get even in the Uber lab which had the least changes (as it should). The labyrinth, while still based on a very flawed and, IMO, misguided foundation, is much less of a hassle now than it used to be.

Yep, the lab has been improved in several ways, which makes part of the quoted "evidence" (/lol, again) in this thread .... pointless ( as I pointed out before.
I mean, even Turtle is acknowledging it.
Good for him/her if that was a good enough improvement to play the game ( this isn't sarcastic, by the way ).

"

Legatus1982 wrote:

...
2. Anywhere else in POE (prior to lab) there were no traps, the game was basic player vs monster gameplay (IE, obviously lending to many people complaining about traps)
...

There may have been traps, I can't remember for sure. I remember someone saying that Diablo 2 had traps and I had to think really hard to even remember them. When fighting monsters the traps are just a minor distraction that is side stepped and then "ignored" while focusing on monsters.

This old "false" argument that the traps are not different kind of game play is used frequently. I assume it is used because it is true for them that use that argument. I call it false though because for me, you, and PoE fans that don't like lab it is a different kind of game play.

The way I try to explain it to them is that when the focus changes from killing monsters to avoiding traps then it becomes trap game play instead of the regular fun PoE kill monster game play.

Now some people like Fruz like to frequently use this argument to attack, insult, and try to antagonize me and others. He can't seem to appreciate the fact that different people can have different experiences when doing the same things.

"

Turtledove wrote:

Now some people like Fruz like to frequently use this argument to attack, insult, and try to antagonize me and others. He can't seem to appreciate the fact that different people can have different experiences when doing the same things.

There is a very BIG difference between having a different experience/opinion/taste regarding something, and obnoxiously spamming the forums relentelessely ( not that it is now better than it used to be ), trying to apply your own opinion as facts ( @"traps don't belong in PoE !!!!!" ).

Also, do you remember how you had been implying that any people disagreeing with you regarding the lab liked eating poop ?
Do you remember ? YEP, you're one to talk about antagonizing others, lol.
You should be ashamed, imho.

"

Fruz wrote:

"

Turtledove wrote:

Now some people like Fruz like to frequently use this argument to attack, insult, and try to antagonize me and others. He can't seem to appreciate the fact that different people can have different experiences when doing the same things.

There is a very BIG difference between having a different experience/opinion/taste regarding something, and obnoxiously spamming the forums relentelessely ( not that it is now better than it used to be ), trying to apply your own opinion as facts ( @"traps don't belong in PoE !!!!!" ).

Also, do you remember how you had been implying that any people disagreeing with you regarding the lab liked eating poop ?
Do you remember ? YEP, you're one to talk about antagonizing others, lol.
You should be ashamed, imho.

I think your characterization is incorrect. Dung beetles live on eating poop. Poop to a dung beetle is like a perfect steak to us. The analogy is that dung beetles can't understand why anyone would not like eating poop. It is very similar to how you seem to believe that there must be something wrong with anyone not liking labyrinth trap gauntlet game play and then have the audacity to come into the Feedback and Suggestions forum and give feedback that they don't like labyrinth.

Now before you say I already made my feedback known like you did above keep in mind, if there is any room for a rational thought in that hypocritical brain of yours, that you have also already stated your opinions about me and my opinions on lab many time before as well. You are being a hypocrite. And you're telling lies about me like falsely claiming that I said traps don't belong in PoE.

That part about beetles eating poop is a nice way to show your lack of understanding of many things that have been said, and how you have been using passive-agressive content that contributes to antagonizing people on the forum.

"

TurtleDove wrote:

And you're telling lies about me like falsely claiming that I said traps don't belong in PoE.

Since I am not going to go through 700+ pages ( yes, I am referring to that joke f a thread ) to find a quote and proove it, I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and apologize then.
Given how much crap has been thrown all over the place by members of the lab-hating-brigade, forgive me if I mixed some of the content, if you never ever said such a thing ( which is not impossible I guess ).

"

Xtorma wrote:

Who determines what "core" poe is. you? I thought GGG was in charge of that.

Are there zana maps where you only get 1 portal. One death. Is this not part of the "core" game?

Prior to the lab has no meaning if you want to talk about the core game. There are traps in maps, which is part of the core game, as well as lab mechanics in the storyline. Quantity is irrelevant as long as they are present. You want to define the "core" game , but that is not for you to define, that is for GGG to define.

Everything you listed also helps you in the lab. Those things also help you to different degrees in maps depending on how you roll them. Maps and lab are core aspects of the game.

Like every other mechanic that was "shoved" in, the lab has undergone improvements and changes. Just because you don't like them , don't mean they haven't been improved and balanced.

I don't want anyone to skip the lab, neither does GGG. If you hate the lab though, and want to skip it because you don't like it...great! buy a carry. It's an option for you and GGG allows it. You can do this throughout the entire "core" game.

Malachi aint shit. It's not malachi I hate , it's the whole act. I can not stand it. Let me skip it. not because I can't do it, but because I hate it. Lets be honest here. Can you do the lab?...I think you can. you just don't want to because you hate it. Why can't I have the same courtesy? The mechanics are irrelevant, its about not wanting to do it. Right? why do you think you need special treatment for the lab?

Maybe they could have done something better that YOU would have liked, but that was not their vision. But because they value your patronage, they gave you concessions on the lab and allowed you to be able to buy a carry, not because you can't do the content, but because you don't like their vision. I think that is pretty awesome of them.

Lab is here to stay. It is part of the "core" game. GGG has made that decision. It is what it is.

Core POE is obviously the POE that we had on "release". That should really go without saying.

Yes there is a Zana mission that only has 1 portal, but since that Zana mission is otherwise completely pointless it's not even a close comparison.

The traps in maps were not there until lab IIRC, then GGG started adding them.

All the mechanics I listed are worse in lab, that was the point.

If you don't like act 4, you CAN skip act 4 the same way I skip lab, only difference is that you don't lose an offering if someone bails on you, your "carry" isn't going to die or quit mid-run for obvious reasons, and if you DC you just come back and continue where you left off. There's no traps and and you don't have to redesign your build for it if it isn't optimized for lagging out on top of traps in HC.


You're trying to act like lab is not different from the rest of POE and you're not making any good arguments for that case; this is because there aren't any. It's not "core" POE, maybe it is TODAY but it certainly doesn't match up with the rest of POE content as normal.

"

Fruz wrote:

hahahaha

Let's go.

*quote where I don't like 5-10 bosses*

Yes, I don't like the 5-10 bosses, that isn't news, I also still haven't seen your video of leveling a VS character 1-uberlab on SSFHC, so your opinions at this point are not valid. At the very least, I can tolerate the 5-10 bosses because they are normal POE content that can be dealt with the normal ways.

*more quotes about vs being trash, factually true*

Yes, VS is garbage, was then still is now

"

Fruz wrote:

The second reason is that Cyclone ended up outperforming it

Cyclone isn't even meta so clearly you understand this, but still want to argue for some reason

"

Fruz wrote:

We could take a successful guide's content too :

"

Kiss_Me_Quick wrote:

This build is able to finish acts comfortably with it's original skill gems. Dual wielding is not worth it until you get Breath of The Council, meaning that you should start off with a shield.

Granted, there is HoA now, but that is not the main dmg source VS bosses.

1. you cant even offhand stat sticks (BOTC) anymore, his build isn't even working in 3.5
2. even if you could, his HP is 6k and is pingponging all over the damn place literally the entire time, this is not even the slightest bit viable in HC whatsoever
3. it was a garbage build in 3.4 just by watching the video, absolutely horrendous mapping compared to pretty much any mapping build
4. idk wtf that mod is on his claw, pretty sure that didn't exist in 3.3 which would explain his 5million dps claim
5. paper dps is not = real dps, you won't be sitting there on a boss on a toon like that in hc eating hits taking you down to <1k life in real POE

Yes it can "do all content" but so can a character with no skill points and no gear on, that isn't even a relevant point in any way. The build is trash 5million or 0million, it's a terrible mapping experience and fails hard in HC.

"

Fruz wrote:

TLDR : VP has not been bad against act bosses and following bosses for a long time, if ever. You just failed to build and use a proper character to realize this.
And if you find this simple fact antagonizing ... well lol, get a thicker skin dude.
This has gone a bit off-topic, but the fact out of this is that : One can kill Izaro with a correct Viper Strike setup without much troubles, even if the OP does not think so :

It is actually quite bad at bosses, including izaro, because of some of the mechanics requiring you to hit stuff across the room while the screen is covered in cancer or in izaro's case doing the mechanics of the room. You're not going to have "5million dps" during your lab runs building your character (which by the way VS was mathed out to have a theoretical 3million dps limit in 3.3, idk what changed in 3.4 to make it suddenly do 5million dps in 3.4 but I surely don't care since it's still a terrible mapping experience), but in the instance you did have "5 million dps" (takes 10+seconds to materialize as 5million but ok) you still would have trouble hitting izaro in between jumping from corner to corner to tap the elemental statues, for instance, because MELEE

"

Fruz wrote:

I'm pretty sure that I could go through all act bosses and at least white/yellow maps bosses + uber Izaro with a SSF glacial hammer character without much troubles, but I don't think that I have time for it.

I'm pretty sure you could too, but not having the time for it is exactly the point isn't it? It's an atrocious build therefor would be atrociously slow and atrociously annoying to try to survive with in HC since nothing is dying as fast as normal and meanwhile you are waiting in melee on a squishy character for your dps to materialize. Actually I'm still not convinced YOU YOURSELF are capable of doing this in SSFHC like you pretended to do with VS so I'm not going to buy this until I see it either.

"

Fruz wrote:

Yep, the lab has been improved in several ways, which makes part of the quoted "evidence" (/lol, again) in this thread .... pointless ( as I pointed out before.
I mean, even Turtle is acknowledging it.
Good for him/her if that was a good enough improvement to play the game ( this isn't sarcastic, by the way ).

Yes, lab has been greatly improved by reduction of trials needed per character as well as a few other things, but it still has 1 portal for several rooms, no way to return on dc, costs an offering to enter, still has traps doing phys degen/un-evadable phys damage which is FUCKING OBNOXIOUS as an evasion build, and has unbelievable rewards tied to doing it that you cannot skip if you actually want to play a real build. Izaro himself is annoying for shitty builds as well but at least by that point you've already learned to deal with that.

The sad thing about lab is how it was the start of the hc populace decline. In hc you want your actions, drops and character power to matter as you want your char to be as strong and tanky as possible on every encounter if you want to survive... And then we have traps with %dmg which destroys most defenses. Doesn't matter if you get a kaom's heart drop before entering lab, equiping it will bring you no joy as it gives no advantage over traps.
Lab literally took some of the most important reasons people play hc and threw them out of the window.

As a result, going back to hc a few days ago i can certainly see a difference between the sc variant. Sometimes you have to literally wait minutes to get a trade posting in /trade 820 while in the sc league at the same time the channel is so full, you can't even join it, nevermind the headache you get trying to read it when you actually do. It's really saddening.

"

Fruz wrote:

That part about beetles eating poop is a nice way to show your lack of understanding of many things that have been said, and how you have been using passive-agressive content that contributes to antagonizing people on the forum.

"

TurtleDove wrote:

And you're telling lies about me like falsely claiming that I said traps don't belong in PoE.

Since I am not going to go through 700+ pages ( yes, I am referring to that joke f a thread ) to find a quote and proove it, I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and apologize then.
Given how much crap has been thrown all over the place by members of the lab-hating-brigade, forgive me if I mixed some of the content, if you never ever said such a thing ( which is not impossible I guess ).

I know what you said is a stupid lie because I DON'T BELIEVE THAT! I know that it is hard for you to not tell lies about me. I think you do it on purpose just to antagonize me. So PROVE it you liar! Prove it or take your silly lies elsewhere because I'm not going to let you intimidate me. I'm going to continue giving my feedback and suggestions to GGG whenever I want to. I'm no longer going to ignore you lies about me. Learn to deal with (to use your language).

"

Fruz wrote:

hahahaha

Let's go.

Spoiler

"

Legatus1982 wrote:

But the problem is every character after my first is an experiment where I am using hilariously underpowered gems to see what I can do with them. I made a viper striker - act bosses were unbearable shit because once you can't oneshot the boss you have to actually avoid their mechanics, and EVERY act boss from 5 to 10 has "mechanics" that are basically just screen-covering cancer. I spend about 90% dodging shit, 5% moving into or out of position, and 5% of the time actually dpsing the boss. Try it man, level a viper strike shadow. You can use sunder or double strike, but unless you're using megatwinked gear that costed 100 exalts you're going to have ZERO FUN doing these act bosses. And that's the problem.

from this page

"

Legatus1982 wrote:

"

Fruz wrote:

Of course it does matter.
And no, you're trying to back up your OP saying that VP is shit against bosses (not only, but the OP is about bosses), taking your character as an example of course.
And if you think that there is no difference between lvl 81 and 90+, and that lvl 18 gems without quality are pretty much the same as lvl 20/21 + 20q gems .... well, you're very, very wrong lol.

Fucking no fruz, it doesn't. You play arc mines to 90, its blowing everything up all the time. You then play viper strike to 80 and realize it's about 1/10th as effective as arc mines at 80. So you know what VS is going to be like roughly at 90 and it's not great. This isn't a complicated fucking topic fruz, jesus christ.

VS IS SHIT. IT'S FUCKING SHIT. GET IT THROUGH YOUR GODDAMN HEAD

from this page

Or how you tried to build a VS char with barely any attack speed

dude. those viper strike threads. just. i mean. wow.

hahahahahahahahaa