Since GGG forced lab down our throats, how about some protection from lab carries that quit or die?

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nooooodles wrote:

The game is supposed to be hardcore. Balancing the game so any half-assed build works will kill the longevity. There should be an offical GGG guide with some starter builds so new players have a fighting chance their first chars, but making the game easier will just kill the best part. Getting a little better each season, and eventually climbing that mountain.

The game is inherently a hardcore arpg game. You want to get through with your evasion build? Get more damage flasks and don't get hit. Could take 10 hours, could take 20 hours. Could be not possible until you are ready to ascend. Playing an easier class until you get faster reflexes is a good way of attacking the problem.

It's a badge of honor to be able to run the labs and reach high tiers as a squishy with an exotic build. Even ranger is considered a high skill class.

Organic skill based progression is where it's at.

True as a general statement but really has nothing in particular to do with Labyrinth.

Organic skill based progression has everything to do with the lab.

The lab is a feature of skill based progression, instead of grinding out xp, the barrier for entry is skill. A lot of people's favorite part of the game, actually.

So balancing the game so everyone can ascend as a high skill character is a little against what makes the game unique in the first place.

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nooooodles wrote:

Organic skill based progression has everything to do with the lab.

The lab is a feature of skill based progression, instead of grinding out xp, the barrier for entry is skill. A lot of people's favorite part of the game, actually.

So balancing the game so everyone can ascend as a high skill character is a little against what makes the game unique in the first place.

You are speaking about stuff in your last sentence that makes little sense to this conversation, at least from what I can tell.

The trap gauntlets are a different kind of game play from the rest of the game. It is the most loathsome part of the game for many people. Here's a list of over 410 threads like this one here in the Feedback and Suggestions forum where over 1010 accounts have voiced the fact that they think the lab should be changed or the ascendancy points be made available a different way.

Over 410 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 1010 posters in support

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Turtledove wrote:

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nooooodles wrote:

Organic skill based progression has everything to do with the lab.

The lab is a feature of skill based progression, instead of grinding out xp, the barrier for entry is skill. A lot of people's favorite part of the game, actually.

So balancing the game so everyone can ascend as a high skill character is a little against what makes the game unique in the first place.

You are speaking about stuff in your last sentence that makes little sense to this conversation, at least from what I can tell.

The trap gauntlets are a different kind of game play from the rest of the game. It is the most loathsome part of the game for many people. Here's a list of over 410 threads like this one here in the Feedback and Suggestions forum where over 1010 accounts have voiced the fact that they think the lab should be changed or the ascendancy points be made available a different way.

Over 410 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 1010 posters in support

Great, it's working as it was designed. You do not get to ascend in a skill based game unless you have the required skill. Not every class is going to be as easy as Marauder. Dumbing the lab down so everyone can make it through with the hard classes is wrong.


Practice with an easier class, then try again.

Aaaaand we're back to the crapy fallacious argument @「lab is a different kind of game」.
*sigh*
Traps are in some maps too, in some incursions/temple as well, they are part of the game, and that's a simple fact.

Deal with it.

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nooooodles wrote:

The lab is a feature of skill based progression, instead of grinding out xp, the barrier for entry is skill.

Exactly, and even if some builds are more adapted for it ( like pretty much everything else in the game ), with the required amount of skill ( not that much, honestly ), any correct build can do it ( even VP obviously, I did it with VP and no armour a long time ago, and it was fine before many new power-creepy additions ).

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Fruz wrote:

Aaaaand we're back to the crapy fallacious argument @「lab is a different kind of game」.
*sigh*
Traps are in some maps too, in some incursions/temple as well, they are part of the game, and that's a simple fact.

Deal with it.

"

nooooodles wrote:

The lab is a feature of skill based progression, instead of grinding out xp, the barrier for entry is skill.

Exactly, and even if some builds are more adapted for it ( like pretty much everything else in the game ), with the required amount of skill ( not that much, honestly ), any correct build can do it ( even VP obviously, I did it with VP and no armour a long time ago, and it was fine before many new power-creepy additions ).

I don't think the lab crusade has ever really been about whether or not it can be done, but more about not wanting to. Their argument is that they don't like it and want to be able to skip it and still get the rewards.

I used to say the same thing about act4. I hate. it, I loathe the belly part. I just want to skip it all, but still get all the rewards and be able to progress. The crusade would attack me and demand I leave their threads, because I was off topic, or whatever. I am like wait bros! I want the exact same thing you do, just in a different part of the game. We are brothers in tears! Support me!
LoL.

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Xtorma wrote:

I don't think the lab crusade has ever really been about whether or not it can be done, but more about not wanting to. Their argument is that they don't like it and want to be able to skip it and still get the rewards.

I used to say the same thing about act4. I hate. it, I loathe the belly part. I just want to skip it all, but still get all the rewards and be able to progress. The crusade would attack me and demand I leave their threads, because I was off topic, or whatever. I am like wait bros! I want the exact same thing you do, just in a different part of the game. We are brothers in tears! Support me!
LoL.

Yet many have been trying to spread misinformation such as "lab is unfair to some builds ! I don't want to respec to life+armour just to beat lab!" kinda crap, and using that to justify the fact that lab should not gate the ascendancy points to their eyes, etc ...

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Turtledove wrote:

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nooooodles wrote:

The lab is essential to stop cheez min max builds.

If you can't get through maybe you aren't ready for a glass cannon DPS build.

Your assertion implies that all builds are treated equally in lab. That is not correct. For example, a Vaal Pact evasion character is at a significant disadvantage in lab compared to a high life regen build. Perhaps you just consider all VP evasion characters even with super great life leech to be glass cannon builds though?

I don't understand. A Vaal Pact build is at advantage if you use The Writhing Jar.

So let me get this straight - you can't/don't want to do the labyrinth, so you're willing to pay another player to do it for you, and now you want some kind of guarantee or compensation that the other player won't quit or fail?

That can be boiled right down to this: you want to be able to outright buy labyrinth clears with currency, and remove both the effort and skill required to do it yourself, as well as the risk associated with paying a carrier.

I propose that if your idea had any merit (which it doesn't), a simpler and better alternative would simply be to have Izaro show-up in the starting room and accept orbs in exchange for easy passage to the end.

That sounds rediculous because it is.

There's no mandate to do the labyrinth the moment you are able to attempt it. If your build doesn't become useful until it's level 60/70, you always have the option of waiting until then to steamroll it yourself. Of course, you'll be missing your ascendency powers until then but that's just something you have to work around.

The alternative is of course paying another player - but again, that's a problem you can solve by yourself. Instead of paying the full amount up-front, maybe you should look for better deals such as "pay 50% at the start, the other 50% upon successful completion" - even that can be exploited by people who're more than happy to collect the 50% and then leave, but the point I'm trying to make is that you *can* negotiate the terms, aren't forced to go with the first carrier you find, and can use basic common sense to limit the amount of risk you're willing to take. Why should GGG take a heavy-handed approach to solve a problem players can solve themselves?

This is why I don't do Uber Lab carries. My connection is too fickle, but it's quite annoying in lower Labs as well. However, when you pay carriers, that's the risk you take. Sometimes the game will disconnect players at the worst of times, especially if they're on a bad connection. :)

On a separate note, how's Lab for Summoners these days? I never could quite do Merc Lab as pure Summoner, let alone Uber.