150 points map tab bollocks BONUS: Fragment tab is 75 points, totaling at 22,5$!

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Miská wrote:

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gibbousmoon wrote:

Stash tabs absolutely do lead to faster content clearing.

Explain to me how stashtabs help you clear faster? (This one is gonna be good)

Read this thread, or any of the others on this subject, and you'll see that very question answered multiple times. There is a reason I used the phrase "ad nauseam."

If that's too much trouble for you, then realize that time = money = better gear = faster killing. The connections are already quite obvious.

But if you need it spelled out, you'll need to go read.

"

RagnarokChu wrote:

If people have the problem with "pure f2p", pretend the game is an extremely generous demo that all you have to do is pay $10 to remove the ad popup that very mildly inconveniences you at best, but people will argue is p2w because the 10 seconds of not watching ads is an advantage over the 100s of hours you play.

I think we can all agree that playing through the entire game with exactly four stash tabs is a little more than a "very mild inconvenience." ;)

If it is indeed a demo, then an argument could be made for the game not being pay2win but rather pay2play, and I actually refer to it as such in a thread I made on the subject. My reason for characterizing the game this way is exactly what you said: Diminishing returns. You can't keep paying and getting stronger and stronger.

Most people who have a problem with the business model as it is, however, do not accept my argument, for the simple reason that the game is not marketed as a demo but as a free2play game, and that you therefore have (at least) two classes of players in the game: One that pays and one that does not. And the one that does not is going to have to waste a massive amount of time muling items to different accounts in order to experience the game completely, let alone ultimately have access to the same level of gear.

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RagnarokChu wrote:

Setting up 100s of shitty 1alch items that most people won't buy and stopping to map to sell an item for a alch is p2lose if anything else :V

Hmmm, I'm not sure how I should explain this to you if you don't know how much this changes things. I'm not posting stuff below 1c. And even that, that far in the league I try to have items that are sold for at least ~5c as otherwise it is waste of time.

I'm unsure how much this means to anyone, but given that I'm not that great at the game and I don't abuse the Biscos/Sextant idiocy, I can tell you that selling stuff gives me some nice currency to buy gear with:



I mean, this may mean nothing to you but I can tell you that the mere difference between having currency tab and not having to buy exalts (which price is massively unstable, meaning you will lose currency because you have to store them instead of chaos) is a lot. Then comes quad tab that I use to sell items that nets me ~100c every day from casual ~10-30c sales.
Again, you can just dismiss that and I won't be very surprised.

Ps. If you are worried about my clear speed, I have a little funny screencap of my /reset_xp before Untainted Paradise:


That said, I also play Summon Skeletons which have terribly bad clear speed.
:V

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Perq wrote:

"

RagnarokChu wrote:

Setting up 100s of shitty 1alch items that most people won't buy and stopping to map to sell an item for a alch is p2lose if anything else :V

Hmmm, I'm not sure how I should explain this to you if you don't know how much this changes things. I'm not posting stuff below 1c. And even that, that far in the league I try to have items that are sold for at least ~5c as otherwise it is waste of time.

I'm unsure how much this means to anyone, but given that I'm not that great at the game and I don't abuse the Biscos/Sextant idiocy, I can tell you that selling stuff gives me some nice currency to buy gear with:

Spoiler

<imagine some expensive jewels here, as I can't post them from my free. :V You can look around my passive trees if you are curious>

I mean, this may mean nothing to you but I can tell you that the mere difference between having currency tab and not having to buy exalts (which price is massively unstable, meaning you will lose currency because you have to store them instead of chaos) is a lot. Then comes quad tab that I use to sell items that nets me ~100c every day from casual ~10-30c sales.
Again, you can just dismiss that and I won't be very surprised.

Ps. If you are worried about my clear speed, I have a little funny screencap of my /reset_xp before Untainted Paradise:

Spoiler

That said, I also play Summon Skeletons which have terribly bad clear speed.
:V

You were missing the point of my jab at you, you quoted a guy that said he had 80+ stash tabs. The only way to logically fill out 80+ stash tab is to have tons of junk, otherwise 2 premium stash tab or 1 quad is more than enough for 99% of the population. The person you quoted was making a joke since it's commentary on the massively dimishing returns on stash tabs after your first 1-3 premimum tabs.

Unless magically you have 100s of 5c+ items to fill up 80 stash tabs, I was jabbing back at you since you were trying to be smart saying I quote:

"

I can have hundreds of items set for sale at all times, meaning I make currency. And I do.
If you didn't manage to fill up your stash tabs - well, sucks to be you.

Also why are we linking random items, should I randomly link expensive items too. Here's 3 random items I'm wearing that equals to aroundish everything you just linked.



Hint I play wander, my gear will be a lot more massively more expensive then yours :V Need to drop the consdencing attitude like you know more then people mystically.

Also I also happen to have a premimum quad tab, 10+ premium stash tab and every other specialized tab :V Thank you for explaining to me the basics of putting items into a tab to sell like it was some hidden arcane knowledge.

Sure, it is. But you don't get those from get go, do you? That said, can we establish that having them actually gives you advantage?
And no, this is not the level of shity fee2play models from mobile, but this is not ethical free2play also.
As I said in the OP, I have a problem with GGG starting to sell tabs for 150 points instead of 50, and that there is also so many of those.
That said, I will have no problem with them (nor their prices) if GGG adds some sort of help for new players that is almost equivalent to what they do.

Someone here already hinted a great idea (sorry, can't be bothered to look it up - too many pages :V) that GGG could just add demo versions of various tabs for new players. Currency tab with stack limit of 500 (or 1000?), map tab that you can store only 3 maps each, essence tab that doesn't allow you to upgrade essences and you have to pick them up and upgrade manually. These aren't that hard to come up with.
You'll still get your silly funnel-tactics to make people buy them, but you won't screw them over in that heavy way which we see today.
You can even connect those to some sort of achievement for new players, so that they have more goals to reach.

There are plenty ways in which GGG can improve the situation. The first thing is actually acknowledging that we have a problem. Really hope that there is someone in GGG even trying to talk about it. :V

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Perq wrote:

Sure, it is. But you don't get those from get go, do you? That said, can we establish that having them actually gives you advantage?
And no, this is not the level of shity fee2play models from mobile, but this is not ethical free2play also.
As I said in the OP, I have a problem with GGG starting to sell tabs for 150 points instead of 50, and that there is also so many of those.
That said, I will have no problem with them (nor their prices) if GGG adds some sort of help for new players that is almost equivalent to what they do.

Someone here already hinted a great idea (sorry, can't be bothered to look it up - too many pages :V) that GGG could just add demo versions of various tabs for new players. Currency tab with stack limit of 500 (or 1000?), map tab that you can store only 3 maps each, essence tab that doesn't allow you to upgrade essences and you have to pick them up and upgrade manually. These aren't that hard to come up with.
You'll still get your silly funnel-tactics to make people buy them, but you won't screw them over in that heavy way which we see today.
You can even connect those to some sort of achievement for new players, so that they have more goals to reach.

There are plenty ways in which GGG can improve the situation. The first thing is actually acknowledging that we have a problem. Really hope that there is someone in GGG even trying to talk about it. :V

Under your definition of "ethical" f2p would be the game is 100% completely f2p in every way possible that runs only on donations or mtx sales. Very few games in the world of good quality can feasibility do this model, even then the word ethical is heavily being misused here.

There is no trickery, game design, or otherwise to hemorrhage you into buying stash tabs. Being inconvienced mildly is extremely acceptable in the market for f2p games. Within the design space of storage space, 3 stash tabs is extremely generous within the f2p market. Focus on free to play, it means nothing else too that. There are a massive scale of f2p games and PoE stands at the near top.

The model from day 1 was mtx + extra stash tabs. Stash tabs themselves massively dimish in usefulness after you buy a handful or less. Total price of the stash tab is under most indie games, and if you want every single fancy stash tab in existence and quad + preimum pack which is beyond what 99% of players will need it will run you $60 game.

The problem is a self-inflicted one, you want to help new players "not spend" money on the game. GGG goal is to make them spend money on the game, what possible benefit do they have to lose on money on maybe the chance that someone will spend.

If the "mini" free versions of stash tabs are decent enough, the vast majority of casual players wouldn't full size versions anyway. How many new players that don't play 100+ hours need a stack limit over 500? How many casual players are overflowing with maps that they desperately need more then 3 of every type.

ONLY reason why GGG would do this is there is a benefit in giving something for free that in return will give them greater benefits.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

Read this thread, or any of the others on this subject, and you'll see that very question answered multiple times. There is a reason I used the phrase "ad nauseam."

If that's too much trouble for you, then realize that time = money = better gear = faster killing. The connections are already quite obvious.

But if you need it spelled out, you'll need to go read.

So what you are saying is indirectly stashtabs make you farm quicker. I guess that also goes for faster internet, having an SSD, living closer to a PoE server, having a better computer. And I can name another 1000 things that money can buy that will make you farm quicker.

Not to even mention that I'm pretty sure if you care about clear speed you are probably already in the game long enough to give something back in return for some more space. And if you then decide not to spend a penny you will take the inconvenience (That's still what it is, no matter how many times you tell yourself it isn't) for granted.

Maybe for someone it's winning when they look better then others. Should probably start a topic about how MTX is also 'p2w'.

This thread is becoming more of a joke everyday. I don't think anyone disagrees with your point, but the way you bring your argument, against a company that is exactly what f2p should be (unless ofcourse you are delusional, and think people can survive on air) is imo disgusting.

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RagnarokChu wrote:

Under your definition of "ethical" f2p would be the game is 100% completely f2p in every way possible that runs only on donations or mtx sales. Very few games in the world of good quality can feasibility do this model, even then the word ethical is heavily being misused here.

There is no trickery, game design, or otherwise to hemorrhage you into buying stash tabs. Being inconvienced mildly is extremely acceptable in the market for f2p games. Within the design space of storage space, 3 stash tabs is extremely generous within the f2p market. Focus on free to play, it means nothing else too that. There are a massive scale of f2p games and PoE stands at the near top.

The model from day 1 was mtx + extra stash tabs. Stash tabs themselves massively dimish in usefulness after you buy a handful or less. Total price of the stash tab is under most indie games, and if you want every single fancy stash tab in existence and quad + preimum pack which is beyond what 99% of players will need it will run you $60 game.

The problem is a self-inflicted one, you want to help new players "not spend" money on the game. GGG goal is to make them spend money on the game, what possible benefit do they have to lose on money on maybe the chance that someone will spend.

This is pretty well worded. Exactly what I kinda tried to say in my previous post. People are going mad looking for pedantics on the f2p model.

And don't forget the 20 character spots we get. Every expansion and area in the game being completely free. No limited bag space for f2p players. etc etc

"

Perq wrote:

Sure, it is. But you don't get those from get go, do you? That said, can we establish that having them actually gives you advantage?
And no, this is not the level of shity fee2play models from mobile, but this is not ethical free2play also.
As I said in the OP, I have a problem with GGG starting to sell tabs for 150 points instead of 50, and that there is also so many of those.
That said, I will have no problem with them (nor their prices) if GGG adds some sort of help for new players that is almost equivalent to what they do.

Someone here already hinted a great idea (sorry, can't be bothered to look it up - too many pages :V) that GGG could just add demo versions of various tabs for new players. Currency tab with stack limit of 500 (or 1000?), map tab that you can store only 3 maps each, essence tab that doesn't allow you to upgrade essences and you have to pick them up and upgrade manually. These aren't that hard to come up with.
You'll still get your silly funnel-tactics to make people buy them, but you won't screw them over in that heavy way which we see today.
You can even connect those to some sort of achievement for new players, so that they have more goals to reach.

There are plenty ways in which GGG can improve the situation. The first thing is actually acknowledging that we have a problem. Really hope that there is someone in GGG even trying to talk about it. :V

Heh, I think I'm the one guilty of the idea of "demo" or "lite" version of currently added Currency, Divination, Essence or Map tabs.

And it's easy to see the merit, because Regular stash tabs are just that comparing them to a Premium stash tab.

So giving them as a REWARD for actually playing the game and reaching a milestone like finishing the first 5 acts, then the complete 10, or just at certain levels like 75 will actually make players a lot more invested in their characters.

And the best part is GGG could chose one of two such implementations:

1) Give a Premium tab when character passes level 75 (specific for each character), as that will further encourage players to "trade" and "experience" more of PoE - there is a huge difference between having such a tab or not, especially regarding "trading".

2) Give "lite/demo" versions of "special" status tabs for characters reaching certain points in game (specific for each character), as that will further entice players to become more "invested" into their in-game avatars and actually care more about them.

The best part regarding this idea, is that it will encourage further support, as long as it's implemented in the right way - this bonus as a "reward" will entice more and more to either expand upon, like with Premium tab => Premium Tabs, or just "upgrade" from the "lite/demo" versions to "full" for the "complete" experience.

It's a win-win scenario.

And with all the future planned new additions, something will need to improve, hopefully before PoE 4.0/5.0, where you WILL be at a disadvantage when trying to experience the entire content as a "free" player versus a "paid" one...

PS: Those need to be specific for EACH CHARACTER, due to the beautiful thing that "botting" is, and unfortunately, until they implement a CAPTCHA form in game to verify at random times, and a very efficient algorithm for player selection, this will ALWAYS plague PoE...

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RagnarokChu wrote:

The problem is a self-inflicted one, you want to help new players "not spend" money on the game. GGG goal is to make them spend money on the game, what possible benefit do they have to lose on money on maybe the chance that someone will spend.

[...]

ONLY reason why GGG would do this is there is a benefit in giving something for free that in return will give them greater benefits.

You answer your own question here. :V I don't want to help new players to not spend money. I want new players to stick around, like the game because it has no bollocks like map stash of nowadays and then buy even the cheapest supporter pack. And then stick around for few more leagues, buy more packs, MTX, whatnot. Annoyed people don't seem to stick around for anything, I think.
People aren't buying packs because they need 100 stash tabs, which you stated yourself. You don't need that many stash tabs.

Because if I were to apply this cynical approach of if you don't force people to pay, they won't pay, why are people even buying supporter pack and (overpriced) cosmetic MTXes? They don't give us any in-game advantage?

Ps. Excuse me for having to explain to you how stash tabs work. You seemed to not know that they give you nice sales. :V And no, these 3 items aren't even close to value of what I linked.

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Perq wrote:

"

RagnarokChu wrote:

The problem is a self-inflicted one, you want to help new players "not spend" money on the game. GGG goal is to make them spend money on the game, what possible benefit do they have to lose on money on maybe the chance that someone will spend.

[...]

ONLY reason why GGG would do this is there is a benefit in giving something for free that in return will give them greater benefits.

You answer your own question here. :V I don't want to help new players to not spend money. I want new players to stick around, like the game because it has no bollocks like map stash of nowadays and then buy even the cheapest supporter pack. And then stick around for few more leagues, buy more packs, MTX, whatnot. Annoyed people don't seem to stick around for anything, I think.
People aren't buying packs because they need 100 stash tabs, which you stated yourself. You don't need that many stash tabs.

Because if I were to apply this cynical approach of if you don't force people to pay, they won't pay, why are people even buying supporter pack and (overpriced) cosmetic MTXes? They don't give us any in-game advantage?

Ps. Excuse me for having to explain to you how stash tabs work. You seemed to not know that they give you nice sales. :V And no, these 3 items aren't even close to value of what I linked.

You want new players to spend money by giving them free stuff that majority of casual players would just use and not bother buying the tabs anyway, since like I stated a mini-version of a map/currency/whatever else is more then enough for casual players. If I was going to play this game 100s+ hours anyway where I somehow need 500+ chaos orbs and more in my stash tab, I am highly likely to pay stash tabs anyway to support the game.

In f2p games the majority of accounts are funded by a smaller number of paying accounts. If I where to buy any support pack, I would have stash tabs anyway with the money you get from supporting the game.

Stuff like the currency stash tab and so on are useless for players that just beat the game act 1-10 and farm a little end-game and maybe get like a 3-5ex build that kills shaper. Mini-version of any stash tab is more than enough to fund this common playstyle of the game.

Which yet again is what I am talking about the attitude like you actually know everything, game was designed from day 1 with mtx + stash tabs. You think on the 5+ years PoE been in production and successful they never in their life considered the benefits vs downsides of giving out free variants or free stash tabs :V

Only free stash tab ever was given out was during the 1.0 releaseish for beta players for a celebration.

Then again I don't know why I'm debating with you because you under the impression that making a game 100% f2p (which a model very very few games can do) will make it more money then the game sliding more towards p2w :V Due to the compromise of it only 99% f2p isn't enough due to semnatics or labeling.