An alternative for ascendency points.

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goetzjam wrote:

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Xeledon2132 wrote:

...
1. Waypoints.
2. I propose to let The Lab in each difficulty give all points that could have been acquired until that difficulty.

1) Except it opens up the field to zerging situations. Get stuck in a trap area with no flask left, well just logout because you have a wp where you can get flask charges back and heal back up.

Agreed. The whole area should always reset when you use the waypoint. And waypoints are only in the empty room before Izaro. That would be good.

As to zerging in general: Well, that is the difference between HC and SC. If someone is really struggling on a boss but feels a powerful need to defeat him anyway, then in SC he can zerg and that is fine. In HC, he has to be good enough to manage in one go.

The suggestion above would be a mix: You cannot "brute-force" zerg Izaro like Malachai, by whittling him down bit by bit between deaths, but you can have many attempts to kill him from 100% without repeating content you dislike just to get to him. Sounds like a fair compromise.

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goetzjam wrote:

2) I mean this isn't a terrible option, except IMO the games balance when leveling should be designed for players to have the AC points. For example act 4 was left more difficult because they believe you should have the AC points before doing at least the later half of that act. In 3.0 the game should be designed in such a way that you are handicapping yourself by not having the points while leveling.

If someone really hates the lab, this gives him the choice to handicap himself by not having the AP until he is at such a lvel that he can do the lab in a higher difficulty. That's also fair. If you wait until you're way overlevelled now, you have the same effect, except you then have to run the first (few) lab at a crazy easy level. Which is not challenging, only a drag.

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SisterBlister wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

"

Xeledon2132 wrote:

...
1. Waypoints.
2. I propose to let The Lab in each difficulty give all points that could have been acquired until that difficulty.

1) Except it opens up the field to zerging situations. Get stuck in a trap area with no flask left, well just logout because you have a wp where you can get flask charges back and heal back up.

Agreed. The whole area should always reset when you use the waypoint. And waypoints are only in the empty room before Izaro. That would be good.

As to zerging in general: Well, that is the difference between HC and SC. If someone is really struggling on a boss but feels a powerful need to defeat him anyway, then in SC he can zerg and that is fine. In HC, he has to be good enough to manage in one go.

The suggestion above would be a mix: You cannot "brute-force" zerg Izaro like Malachai, by whittling him down bit by bit between deaths, but you can have many attempts to kill him from 100% without repeating content you dislike just to get to him. Sounds like a fair compromise.

"

goetzjam wrote:

2) I mean this isn't a terrible option, except IMO the games balance when leveling should be designed for players to have the AC points. For example act 4 was left more difficult because they believe you should have the AC points before doing at least the later half of that act. In 3.0 the game should be designed in such a way that you are handicapping yourself by not having the points while leveling.

If someone really hates the lab, this gives him the choice to handicap himself by not having the AP until he is at such a lvel that he can do the lab in a higher difficulty. That's also fair. If you wait until you're way overlevelled now, you have the same effect, except you then have to run the first (few) lab at a crazy easy level. Which is not challenging, only a drag.

If the whole area resets then you get additional monsters for flask charges and it gives you a re-try basically to tackle the challenge. The thing is, for me that isn't acceptable as hundreds, if not thousands of people complete the lab as is now, without such a crutch.

About the only good thing to come from the waypoint system in my eyes is that it does help against disconnects. I've had a few here and there, but its incredibly rare. For people that have massive disconnect issues I'm not sure what the answer is, but I doubt that any of the big name people that are pushing for this to change fit in that category, so its hard to get an honest input by someone in this category.


I'm torn as to why people think it doesn't provide any challenge, as if you make massive mistake you can still die to traps, but it would have to be a significant mistake at that. So you agree that the tradeoff for allowing the ac points to be retroactively earned by doing a higher difficult lab is good, but with the tradeoff that the game assumes you have the points when progressing through the game so you put yourself at a massive disadvantage by not getting them as you would\could now?

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goetzjam wrote:

If the whole area resets then you get additional monsters for flask charges and it gives you a re-try basically to tackle the challenge. The thing is, for me that isn't acceptable as hundreds, if not thousands of people complete the lab as is now, without such a crutch.

To me the difference with waypoints added breaks down to this:

Say the Lab takes 30 clacks (an arbitrary time unit I just invented) to complete.
Without waypoints, when you mess up you lose 0-30 clacks of progress.
With waypoints, when you mess up you lose 0-10 clacks of progress.
When you reenter, you retry the challenges in both scenarios - but with waypoints you get to skip every 10 clacks of progress you completed before.
The remaining challenge will not be any easier - but you don't have to do the stuff again that you have proven you can do 20 clacks ago.

As I see it this doesn't make the Lab any easier - just less time consuming if somethong goes wrong, be it bad play or dc. Retrying is not the same thing as zerging.

Normal waypoints (and portals) outside the Lab only make the game easier because the zones don't automatically reset when you use them. Otherwise the would just be QoL

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Xeledon2132 wrote:

a good explanation

Yes, exactly. And while such a WP system would make things very slightly easier for players, it would greatly reduce the frustration from DCs and also allow people with real life interruptions to start a lab run at any time, not just when they are quite sure to be uninterrupted for 30 clacks.

only issue with the waypoint system is the logout macro

i understand the frustration after real DC (however these are very strange as I do not DC more frequently than once a week or two) and the real life obligations - these are real

but something inside me protests when people bring DCs into it while in fact DCing themselves using a disconnect macro to save their XP/character

as long as the game is balanced and built around chicken/coward's tools - and the lab is THE place where these things do not work (it is balanced WITHOUT logouts in mind) - it should stay that way

some legic DC's are colateral that seems to be a reasonable price (not that other games do not interfere with real life stuff)

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diablofdb wrote:

well the lab is great I enjoy it and so does most POE player.

Some tolerate it better than others, doubtful that it is true that most enjoy it. Bottom line, you don't know and neither do I.

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Turtledove wrote:

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diablofdb wrote:

well the lab is great I enjoy it and so does most POE player.

Doubtful that is true. Bottom line, you don't know and neither do I.

You doubt it because you dislike it, but do you really think GGG would sit and do nothing if it was a large of an issue as you would make it out to be?

Absolutely not, which indicates its 50\50 at worst, but more then likely the majority of people like it or the rewards enough to not bitch about it daily, unlike some people...

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sidtherat wrote:

only issue with the waypoint system is the logout macro...

That really cannot serve as a reason not to change things. A few people "cheating" should not fuck up the game play for all those others who don't.

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SisterBlister wrote:

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sidtherat wrote:

only issue with the waypoint system is the logout macro...

That really cannot serve as a reason not to change things. A few people "cheating" should not fuck up the game play for all those others who don't.

It won't be a few people, the majority of the disconnects would be from a player input, either disconnecting the cable or using a logout macro. So yes its actually a really good reason to not change something, because it opens up a very big window to cheat the challenge.

How hard do you think it would be for GGG to introduce a snap shot like feature where your life, flask charges, debuffs, everything was saved in that location on a disconnect?

Upon re-entering the game you are asked if you would like to continue your instance of the lab where you were disconnected (with the life\flask charges\ect you had) or if you don't want to continue.