Over 430 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 1040 posters in support DONE!!!!!

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Dawmz wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

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Dawmz wrote:

OH yeah, 3*15 mins to get the points, what a no-life, hardcore experience.

This falsehood again, please face reality! Look at the labyrinth ladder for standard normal. The median is usually around 40 minutes NOT 15 minutes. Chris Wilson prior to release said to expect 45 to an hour to complete, which would be reasonable.

Then learn to play the game, what else can I say ? If you do the lab overlevelled because you hate it, it should take you 15 mins tops.

You can't tell average players to 'learn the game' and get over it.

Average players aren't as good as you in lab completion. You seem to have trouble understanding turtle's point.

40 mins does not equate to 15 mins. That's a fact. And it's not going to change.

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Dawmz wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

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Dawmz wrote:

OH yeah, 3*15 mins to get the points, what a no-life, hardcore experience.

This falsehood again, please face reality! Look at the labyrinth ladder for standard normal. The median is usually around 40 minutes NOT 15 minutes. Chris Wilson prior to release said to expect 45 to an hour to complete, which would be reasonable.

Then learn to play the game, what else can I say ? If you do the lab overlevelled because you hate it, it should take you 15 mins tops.

Great! Good for you! We are not talking about you though. The discussion is people that do not like doing labyrinth. People that do it as little as possible and what average times would be not what fastest times would be.

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Dawmz wrote:

It's actually 3 for me. I never did uber lab, probably never will. I can agree that the 3 first lab feel mandatory, the 4th one is totally optional and luxury..

And the next thing you're gonna tell me is that you never ever died to some hefty crit from Izaro, or ran it only to find out at a certain point that you could not do it, or DCed during a lab run. If one of the aforementioned things happened, that was still the best time you've had in this game, right? Sure didn't feel bad at all, yes? The fact that some builds just can not do lab runs consistantly, or at all, also is no cause for concern, am I right?

In all due respect, if you think that in a clearspeed oriented power-creep meta, even one point in terms of character progression is "optional", I don't think we need to discuss this any further.

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Fruz wrote:

Wow, there seem to be a lot of bad faith there.

So quickly :
- Having vaal pact makes the lab a tiny bit more difficult compared to normal builds, it's completely doable on a VP char, and not too hard. = not nasty
I will agree that if EB, the ES should probably ignored, never thought about that one in the lab.

Vaal pact is doable, I never said impossible. But yeah, it is more difficult, so thank you for further validating my argument.

And this isn't about faith. Faith is for whatever godhood you believe in.

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Fruz wrote:

- Lots of people see Izaro's mechanics as actually interesting, it is one of the most interesting fight in PoE, by far. For people that liking brainlessly zerging blindly everything, sure it force them to think, so might not like that process I guess.

I am not saying it is mechanically bad per se, I am saying uber izaro is overdone in terms of dmg. His sword "reave" delivers about 7-7,5k damage (unbuffed) prior to any mitigation on the player's end. One lag, or maybe just some stuttering, and you're toast. It's the bullshit deaths that suck in this "one try" environment.

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Fruz wrote:

- All builds can go through the lab. It's BS to call build diversity when it's convenient like this, all endgame viable enough builds can do the lab ( and most of them can Uber, the problem being Izaro. I cannot say if they all can so I will go with "most" here ).
I does make the boss fight difficult for glass canons, which is a good thing, it teaches glass-canons that some parts of the game will kill them if they are not very, very, very careful.
This is a good game design.

I call BS on "all builds", I even call BS on "all end-game-viable builds". Summon spectre is end-game viable to the point of being able to kill uber-atziri comfortably and I've yet to see a spectre summoner that isn't completely overlevelled and overgeared do a successful uber-lab run. And if there's one or two that made it through, they'll still be a rare exception.

You're trying to argue the obvious fact that the lab favours certain builds while it punishes others. That being said, this content is not balanced, and if it is not balanced, then it is not good design.

And I don't care how "good game design" it is, that Izaro pwns glass cannons as much as a bunch of the new map-bosses do. I'm not running glass cannons, and I still say uber lab is way too unforgiving.

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Fruz wrote:

You know what is a bad game design ? Allowing everybody with even more than fucked up builds to be able to go through the content like it's nothing, that would be a bad design.

I know what bad game design is, this thread is dedicated specifically to just that. And what you call "bullshit builds" won't even make it to merciless Izaro or beyond, thus your point is invalid.

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Fruz wrote:

- The time argument is a nonsense, going through the lab does not take a lot of time, and the learning process to go through it takes much, much, much less time that the crazy amount of knowledge needed to reach endgame and go through maps comfortably.

You're comparing apples and berries here, these two things have nothing to do with one another, unless we include uber Izaro in this equation.

From a softcore perspective: When you're mapping and you die, you still get to do the whole thing, including bosses. When you progress through the "campaign" and you die, you still get to do the whole thing. When you run lab and you die, you have do it all over again, and that's frustrating, or boring, or both. All of this also applies to disconnects, or shitty deaths because of lags, or client crashes, whatsoever. Some people do not have the time on their hands to get their build to a point that they can run uber lab with ease, or they don't run an OP pathfinder BV.

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Sure_K4y wrote:

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Dawmz wrote:

It's actually 3 for me. I never did uber lab, probably never will. I can agree that the 3 first lab feel mandatory, the 4th one is totally optional and luxury..

And the next thing you're gonna tell me is that you never ever died to some hefty crit from Izaro, or ran it only to find out at a certain point that you could not do it, or DCed during a lab run. If one of the aforementioned things happened, that was still the best time you've had in this game, right? Sure didn't feel bad at all, yes? The fact that some builds just can not do lab runs consistantly, or at all, also is no cause for concern, am I right?

In all due respect, if you think that in a clearspeed oriented power-creep meta, even one point in terms of character progression is "optional", I don't think we need to discuss this any further.

First, the lab was never the best time I had in the game. To be honest, I don't like it. I don't hate it either. I just consider it like other parts of the game, something that needs to be done before end game. And no I never died in the lab, because since I don't like it, I'm waiting to be +10 levels to do it (except for normal, because it's very easy and the first 2 asc points are game changer).
I don't think I ever did lab more than 3 times on a char, because it's not something I want to do for fun and the reward besides the asc points aren't worth it in my opinion. So no, I'm not especially trained to do the lab. But you don't need training to spam quicksilver and health pots through a zone 10 lvls under yourself and finish it in 15 mins.
And yes I think the last 2 points are totally optional for most of the builds, the game has been designed around 3*2 pts for the most part and it feels like it. On my current char, the last 2 points would give me 15% increased ele dmg, 4% cast speed, and -5% ele dmg from nearby ennemies. It's not even worth a jewel slot. So I'm not doing it. Maybe one day if I'm bored, but proably not. Because the last lab is a way bigger investment than the 3 first ones, you need to do the 6 map trials which are much longer than the other ones, then you need to do the uber lab zone itself which is really dangerous while the 3 first ones arent. The risk/time reward isn't worth it, so I pass. It's as simple as that.

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Sure_K4y wrote:

The fact that some builds just can not do lab runs consistantly, or at all, also is no cause for concern, am I right?

fact? or a false assertion maybe?

list these builds - but do something more than 'vaal pact' or 'eb'. i want gear and passives.

because ive done lab on pretty much all build archetypes (including uber ofc) and when i read that 'lab is impossible for some builds' i know that i read bullshit


izaro is a build check - if you are too glass and too little cannon - youll fail. if you are too tank and too little cannon - it will take a long time. if your build is ok and you are not up to the taks - youll fail. if anyone fails at izaro - decrapify your build or yourself and try again. it is by design that crap builds wont be able to complete it!



traps? DO NOT GET HIT BY THEM ffs! you can babble all day long about life regen being an advantage - sure it is. but you know what? if you get hit by the traps you have already failed and it is you and YOU ALONE to blame for that. get better, slow down, do not get hit. and youll realize that most of the bullshit theories floating around regarding this topic are just that - bullshit spew by no-skill, no-experience hearsay-evidence loving armchair generals (most of them are crit bow copy pasta rangers.. they really are)

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sidtherat wrote:

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Sure_K4y wrote:

The fact that some builds just can not do lab runs consistantly, or at all, also is no cause for concern, am I right?

fact? or a false assertion maybe?

list these builds - but do something more than 'vaal pact' or 'eb'. i want gear and passives.

because ive done lab on pretty much all build archetypes (including uber ofc) and when i read that 'lab is impossible for some builds' i know that i read bullshit


izaro is a build check - if you are too glass and too little cannon - youll fail. if you are too tank and too little cannon - it will take a long time. if your build is ok and you are not up to the taks - youll fail. if anyone fails at izaro - decrapify your build or yourself and try again. it is by design that crap builds wont be able to complete it!



traps? DO NOT GET HIT BY THEM ffs! you can babble all day long about life regen being an advantage - sure it is. but you know what? if you get hit by the traps you have already failed and it is you and YOU ALONE to blame for that. get better, slow down, do not get hit. and youll realize that most of the bullshit theories floating around regarding this topic are just that - bullshit spew by no-skill, no-experience hearsay-evidence loving armchair generals (most of them are crit bow copy pasta rangers.. they really are)

Builds, gear and passives? Want a nice long massage too, and maybe a cup of coffee while we're at it? ;-)

Try any vaal-skill based build you like, oh wait, there's no vaal souls, my bad. Try summon spectre in uber-lab. Try a crit reave build with vaal-pact in the uber lab, or any other evasion based melee build, are you gonna say there's no problems at all? are there any differences, or is it actually properly balanced? And try it in a league without your accumulated gear in standard, pull it off consistantly, then we can talk...

You know what? I've got an idea, create a character in the essence league, and make a video with 5 successful uber-lab runs in a row and upload it within 14 days. You game?

I love how you "big ballers" always think you're in a position to lecture people who don't like the lab and have their reasons for that.

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Dawmz wrote:

First, the lab was never the best time I had in the game. To be honest, I don't like it. I don't hate it either. I just consider it like other parts of the game, something that needs to be done before end game. And no I never died in the lab, because since I don't like it, I'm waiting to be +10 levels to do it (except for normal, because it's very easy and the first 2 asc points are game changer).I don't think I ever did lab more than 3 times on a char, because it's not something I want to do for fun and the reward besides the asc points aren't worth it in my opinion. So no, I'm not especially trained to do the lab. But you don't need training to spam quicksilver and health pots through a zone 10 lvls under yourself and finish it in 15 mins.

In other words, you don't like it, and if it wasn't for the asc-points, you wouldn't do it. Basically I could rest my case right here, but there might be more.

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Dawmz wrote:

And yes I think the last 2 points are totally optional for most of the builds, the game has been designed around 3*2 pts for the most part and it feels like it. On my current char, the last 2 points would give me 15% increased ele dmg, 4% cast speed, and -5% ele dmg from nearby ennemies.

A considerable chunk of this game is still balanced around not having ascendancy points at all, just a heads-up. And if your build does not benefit too much from these 2 points that does not mean that is case for other builds, or other ascendancy classes. There are some ascendancies where these 2 points make a significant difference.

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Dawmz wrote:

It's not even worth a jewel slot. So I'm not doing it. Maybe one day if I'm bored, but proably not. Because the last lab is a way bigger investment than the 3 first ones, you need to do the 6 map trials which are much longer than the other ones, then you need to do the uber lab zone itself which is really dangerous while the 3 first ones arent. The risk/time reward isn't worth it, so I pass. It's as simple as that.

Jewel slots are considered to be very valuable, and anything remotely close to that, which does not even require additional character levels, is highly desireable. And believe me, I know what you need to do to get into the uber lab as much as everyone else here does.

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Sure_K4y wrote:

In other words, you don't like it, and if it wasn't for the asc-points, you wouldn't do it. Basically I could rest my case right here, but there might be more.

Man, it's a video game, ofc there are parts I don't like much, others I really enjoy. That's the way it is. I don't like Act 4 either, do you see me asking for it to be removed ? No, when it's time to do act 4, I do it as fast as I can and I move on. Other people probably love it, I don't, whatever, it's 30 mins*2, in the grand scheme of things, it's nothing. Lab isn't really a part I enjoy, even if I like it a bit more now than when it was released, probably because I learned to manage traps and not fear them, but once again, it's a part of the journey to end game so I do it.
You can't have only what you really like in the game, if we'd listen to this forum, Poe would be an infinite ledge up to lvl 80, then a few maps, then game over because grind is too hard. That would make a fun and long lasting game for sure...

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Sure_K4y wrote:

A considerable chunk of this game is still balanced around not having ascendancy points at all, just a heads-up. And if your build does not benefit too much from these 2 points that does not mean that is case for other builds, or other ascendancy classes. There are some ascendancies where these 2 points make a significant difference.

Yes so ? Currently the game isn't balanced around the last 2 asc points. Maybe one day we'll get a patch notes rebalancing such and such part of the game, making those last 2 points really important. Then I'll do them. Right now, it's not worth my time in my opinion. I'm better off farming maps than doing this shit. Then again, I'm usually not playing my chars after lvl 90 because the grind is boring for me. Maybe if I'd play up to 100, it would be worth it to do the last lab. Right now, it's not, and I don't particularly enjoy it, so I don't do it.

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Sure_K4y wrote:

Jewel slots are considered to be very valuable, and anything remotely close to that, which does not even require additional character levels, is highly desireable. And believe me, I know what you need to do to get into the uber lab as much as everyone else here does.

Jewel slots are certainly very valuable. What I'm saying is, it would take me more time to do uber lab (and it would be way more dangerous) than it is to grind exp for 2 levels and get a new jewel. And this new jewel is more impactful than those last 2 pts for my builds. So I pass. These last 2 asc points are "mandatory" for extremely competitive players, at very high levels. And something tells me these players don't whine all day long on a forum because they don't like this part of the game.

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Sure_K4y wrote:

Try any vaal-skill based build you like, oh wait, there's no vaal souls, my bad. Try summon spectre in uber-lab. Try a crit reave build with vaal-pact in the uber lab, or any other evasion based melee build, are you gonna say there's no problems at all? are there any differences, or is it actually properly balanced? And try it in a league without your accumulated gear in standard, pull it off consistantly, then we can talk...

* Izaro spawns a shit-ton of skeles, should cover vaal souls
* I know nothing about summoners, so I cant comment that
* EV melee have a ton of block or they die to all the other content too

I've done Uber exactly twice in Essence. First with a 5k life Acro/Phase crit bow build (split + barrage) @91, when I finally unlocked it. Then with CI/EV max-block Dualstrike Gladiator, which has only a meagre 5.6K ES & 5.5kEV, at lvl 83. Uber is not a problem, if your build is balanced, you have properly rolled flasks and know the mechanics.

Not all builds are appropriate as Uber farmers, but most if not all of them can do Uber at least to get the passive points. Even if this isn't so, and a small percentage of builds can't do Uber lab, this is not an issue, because:

* Uber is entirely optional
* Not all builds can do 100% of the content easily - this was never the case.

Will you quit acting like spectre builds can't do labyrinth? Traps do 90% Less damage versus spectres. If you can't keep them alive when they only take 10% of the trap damage, you don't know how to play a summoner.

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Sure_K4y wrote:

You know what? I've got an idea, create a character in the essence league, and make a video with 5 successful uber-lab runs in a row and upload it within 14 days. You game?

I love how you "big ballers" always think you're in a position to lecture people who don't like the lab and have their reasons for that.

Better yet, ask sidtherat to make even a FRACTION of his/her arguments after completing the uber lab in HC.

Yeah... I'm not holding my breath either.