Over 430 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 1040 posters in support DONE!!!!!

How about you understand how idiotic it is, to be doing that in order to make it easier for myself. There are some traps that are not evadeable so you have to step on one or two once in a while.

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Pyrokar wrote:

I am removing my kaom's heart when facing uber trials in order to make it easier for myself. I wonder if that's good design for an arpg; removing arguably the best/most defensive chest in the game in order to make it easier for yourself. The sad thing is that even when removing it i still have 6k hp so i need to remove more pieces of gear if i want to be safe. LOL

Why would you do that ? Traps are %based anyway. You could have 100 hp or 100k hp, it wouldn't change anything to the number of traps you can trigger before dying.
And honestly, I have no idea how people can die to traps. Especially life based chars, who can basically run through everything and power their way with quicksilver and life flasks.

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Sure_K4y wrote:

The lab punishes certain builds for being what they are. If you run vaal pact, or eldritch battery, or spectres, you're in for a nasty ride, so you better have someone to carry you through. That being said, the lab does not present a level playing field. It's not a matter of how good your build is, and how many exalteds you invested in gear, certain keystones or skills put you at the disadvantage before you even start running it.

This is a simple matter of fact that has been ignored during the design of the lab from the beginning, and is not only getting ignored still, but has been made even worse with the implementation of the uber-lab, and the ridiculous dmg that uber izaro can dish out, along with some new, mostly annoying mechanics. The lab is a grinding ground for OP builds, like pathfinder BV, or Juggernauts and other specific builds, like dedicated boss-killers.

And don't get me started on the occasional disconnect that everyone has once in a while. This is a forced online game, and one DC in the lab means all progress in the lab is lost. What is there to like about it? Disconnects happen to everyone, the question is not *if*, the question is *when*.

This is just the facts, and there's no way on earth that this could be considered good game design in a game that prides itself with its build-diversity, or what little of that there may be left. Build diversity means allowing for different builds to play properly throughout, build diversity does not mean you have to have specific builds to grind specific content. The lab does not allow for this build diversity to happen in an enjoyable fashion, because of the reasons previously stated.



On a personal note, I don't like the lab, at all. It is a nerve-wrecking time-sink, with important character progression gated behind it, that is lightyears from being "optional". One may argue that way back when we killed uber atziri without ascendancies, but the game's changed since then, and so have builds.

On a side note I would like for GGG to realize that they can do nothing to get this game away from a clearspeed oriented meta, unless they completely "erase and rewind", but I digress...

The worst part for me is this "one try only mentality", the "thrill of a hardcore experience". I simply do not have the time or the patience for this anymore. Back in the days, when I played Diablo2 a lot, I had that time. I was a dedicated hardcore only player, I could recover from a character loss reasonably quickly, because I could spend a day or two more or less no-lifing my way back to something half-decent. Now I have less time on my hands, so I chose not to play hardcore, and I would like it if the game, and it's devs, had the courtesy of respecting my decision of enrolling in a softcore experience.

Wow, there seem to be a lot of bad faith there.

So quickly :
- Having vaal pact makes the lab a tiny bit more difficult compared to normal builds, it's completely doable on a VP char, and not too hard. = not nasty
I will agree that if EB, the ES should probably ignored, never thought about that one in the lab.

- Lots of people see Izaro's mechanics as actually interesting, it is one of the most interesting fight in PoE, by far. For people that liking brainlessly zerging blindly everything, sure it force them to think, so might not like that process I guess.

- All builds can go through the lab. It's BS to call build diversity when it's convenient like this, all endgame viable enough builds can do the lab ( and most of them can Uber, the problem being Izaro. I cannot say if they all can so I will go with "most" here ).
I does make the boss fight difficult for glass canons, which is a good thing, it teaches glass-canons that some parts of the game will kill them if they are not very, very, very careful.
This is a good game design.

You know what is a bad game design ? Allowing everybody with even more than fucked up builds to be able to go through the content like it's nothing, that would be a bad design.

- The time argument is a nonsense, going through the lab does not take a lot of time, and the learning process to go through it takes much, much, much less time that the crazy amount of knowledge needed to reach endgame and go through maps comfortably.

That was not that quick at the end heh, knew it lol.

Tonnes of money and PoE workers have been spent designing and testing lab.

It's a huge kick in the guts for GGG to have to minimise lab. Because they worked so hard for it.

So it's not going to happen. They don't wanna admit they are wrong.

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Dawmz wrote:

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Pyrokar wrote:

I am removing my kaom's heart when facing uber trials in order to make it easier for myself. I wonder if that's good design for an arpg; removing arguably the best/most defensive chest in the game in order to make it easier for yourself. The sad thing is that even when removing it i still have 6k hp so i need to remove more pieces of gear if i want to be safe. LOL

Why would you do that ? Traps are %based anyway. You could have 100 hp or 100k hp, it wouldn't change anything to the number of traps you can trigger before dying.
And honestly, I have no idea how people can die to traps. Especially life based chars, who can basically run through everything and power their way with quicksilver and life flasks.

I am doing that because i take damage faster and life flasks heal less % if i have a high life pool.

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Dawmz wrote:

OH yeah, 3*15 mins to get the points, what a no-life, hardcore experience.

This falsehood again, please face reality! Look at the labyrinth ladder for standard normal. The median is usually around 40 minutes NOT 15 minutes. Chris Wilson prior to release said to expect 45 to an hour to complete, which would be reasonable.

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Dawmz wrote:

It's actually 3 for me.

Great! Good for you! We are not talking about you though. The discussion is people that do not like doing labyrinth. People that do it as little as possible and what average times would be not what fastest times would be.

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Turtledove wrote:

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Dawmz wrote:

OH yeah, 3*15 mins to get the points, what a no-life, hardcore experience.

This falsehood again, please face reality! Look at the labyrinth ladder for standard normal. The median is usually around 40 minutes NOT 15 minutes. Chris Wilson prior to release said to expect 45 to an hour to complete, which would be reasonable.

Then learn to play the game, what else can I say ? If you do the lab overlevelled because you hate it, it should take you 15 mins tops.

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Dawmz wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

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Dawmz wrote:

OH yeah, 3*15 mins to get the points, what a no-life, hardcore experience.

This falsehood again, please face reality! Look at the labyrinth ladder for standard normal. The median is usually around 40 minutes NOT 15 minutes. Chris Wilson prior to release said to expect 45 to an hour to complete, which would be reasonable.

Then learn to play the game, what else can I say ? If you do the lab overlevelled because you hate it, it should take you 15 mins tops.

You can't tell average players to 'learn the game' and get over it.

Average players aren't as good as you in lab completion. You seem to have trouble understanding turtle's point.

40 mins does not equate to 15 mins. That's a fact. And it's not going to change.

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Dawmz wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

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Dawmz wrote:

OH yeah, 3*15 mins to get the points, what a no-life, hardcore experience.

This falsehood again, please face reality! Look at the labyrinth ladder for standard normal. The median is usually around 40 minutes NOT 15 minutes. Chris Wilson prior to release said to expect 45 to an hour to complete, which would be reasonable.

Then learn to play the game, what else can I say ? If you do the lab overlevelled because you hate it, it should take you 15 mins tops.

Great! Good for you! We are not talking about you though. The discussion is people that do not like doing labyrinth. People that do it as little as possible and what average times would be not what fastest times would be.

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Dawmz wrote:

It's actually 3 for me. I never did uber lab, probably never will. I can agree that the 3 first lab feel mandatory, the 4th one is totally optional and luxury..

And the next thing you're gonna tell me is that you never ever died to some hefty crit from Izaro, or ran it only to find out at a certain point that you could not do it, or DCed during a lab run. If one of the aforementioned things happened, that was still the best time you've had in this game, right? Sure didn't feel bad at all, yes? The fact that some builds just can not do lab runs consistantly, or at all, also is no cause for concern, am I right?

In all due respect, if you think that in a clearspeed oriented power-creep meta, even one point in terms of character progression is "optional", I don't think we need to discuss this any further.

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Fruz wrote:

Wow, there seem to be a lot of bad faith there.

So quickly :
- Having vaal pact makes the lab a tiny bit more difficult compared to normal builds, it's completely doable on a VP char, and not too hard. = not nasty
I will agree that if EB, the ES should probably ignored, never thought about that one in the lab.

Vaal pact is doable, I never said impossible. But yeah, it is more difficult, so thank you for further validating my argument.

And this isn't about faith. Faith is for whatever godhood you believe in.

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Fruz wrote:

- Lots of people see Izaro's mechanics as actually interesting, it is one of the most interesting fight in PoE, by far. For people that liking brainlessly zerging blindly everything, sure it force them to think, so might not like that process I guess.

I am not saying it is mechanically bad per se, I am saying uber izaro is overdone in terms of dmg. His sword "reave" delivers about 7-7,5k damage (unbuffed) prior to any mitigation on the player's end. One lag, or maybe just some stuttering, and you're toast. It's the bullshit deaths that suck in this "one try" environment.

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Fruz wrote:

- All builds can go through the lab. It's BS to call build diversity when it's convenient like this, all endgame viable enough builds can do the lab ( and most of them can Uber, the problem being Izaro. I cannot say if they all can so I will go with "most" here ).
I does make the boss fight difficult for glass canons, which is a good thing, it teaches glass-canons that some parts of the game will kill them if they are not very, very, very careful.
This is a good game design.

I call BS on "all builds", I even call BS on "all end-game-viable builds". Summon spectre is end-game viable to the point of being able to kill uber-atziri comfortably and I've yet to see a spectre summoner that isn't completely overlevelled and overgeared do a successful uber-lab run. And if there's one or two that made it through, they'll still be a rare exception.

You're trying to argue the obvious fact that the lab favours certain builds while it punishes others. That being said, this content is not balanced, and if it is not balanced, then it is not good design.

And I don't care how "good game design" it is, that Izaro pwns glass cannons as much as a bunch of the new map-bosses do. I'm not running glass cannons, and I still say uber lab is way too unforgiving.

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Fruz wrote:

You know what is a bad game design ? Allowing everybody with even more than fucked up builds to be able to go through the content like it's nothing, that would be a bad design.

I know what bad game design is, this thread is dedicated specifically to just that. And what you call "bullshit builds" won't even make it to merciless Izaro or beyond, thus your point is invalid.

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Fruz wrote:

- The time argument is a nonsense, going through the lab does not take a lot of time, and the learning process to go through it takes much, much, much less time that the crazy amount of knowledge needed to reach endgame and go through maps comfortably.

You're comparing apples and berries here, these two things have nothing to do with one another, unless we include uber Izaro in this equation.

From a softcore perspective: When you're mapping and you die, you still get to do the whole thing, including bosses. When you progress through the "campaign" and you die, you still get to do the whole thing. When you run lab and you die, you have do it all over again, and that's frustrating, or boring, or both. All of this also applies to disconnects, or shitty deaths because of lags, or client crashes, whatsoever. Some people do not have the time on their hands to get their build to a point that they can run uber lab with ease, or they don't run an OP pathfinder BV.