Over 430 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 1040 posters in support DONE!!!!!

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mark1030 wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

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mark1030 wrote:

If you're going to use that list, change "582 different people" to "582 different accounts". We all know some people posted with more than one account in some of those threads.

I looked and it says accounts? The update on the OP update is 9:21 which is well before your post. I do appreciate your suggestion though. I remember fixing a typo immediately after posting so maybe your suggestion is something that I also fixed then??? I really don't remember for sure. :-) (BTW, I only know of one person that has probably posted with more than one account.)

Could be, turtledove. I didn't go back and read what you added to the op. I was referring to the post that referred to "people" and you quoted that saying you were going to add it. So you probably changed it when you added it.

Okay, mystery solved. Thank you. When one is getting as old as me, one can worry about starting to lose one's memory. My typo fix BTW was "list" -> "lists". :-)

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Zaludoz wrote:

and the number of people who have commented that many of their friends have left the game due to the labyrinth

Tying this back to my anecdotal evidence post, this is where anecdotal evidence crosses the line from evidence into conjecture. So, I think it is good that we stay on the side of evidence as much as possible. For example, having a hard list of threads is evidence that can be checked and used by others. You checked and used the list to come up with a list of all the people posting in the threads. Previously someone else used the list to do an analysis of the thread authors. Just some examples that anecdotal evidence is valid and useful evidence when done properly.

Another interesting statistic that seems to come out of this analysis is that it appears that about twice as many people post without ever starting a new thread as people starting a new thread. Prior to the analysis I would have guessed something like five times as many?

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Another interesting statistic that seems to come out of this analysis is that it appears that about twice as many people post without ever starting a new thread as people starting a new thread. Prior to the analysis I would have guessed something like five times as many?

So you are really surprised that 33% start a new thread instead of at least checking the first page if a thread for the same topic is already present... that is rather optimistic.

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Oh, wow. This cult is sinking even lower now... Profiling forum posters, making lists of "patriots" & "enemies of the state"... hahaha :))

Let me briefly note why the anti-Lab movement is a complete failure and why will GGG keep dismissing it as a "vocal minority":

* posting obnoxious non-feedback (200+ threads of spam & flaming)
* agressive behaviour toward posters who counter your Lab complaints
* glaring usage of alternate accounts, to "prove your numbers" & spam the forums
* constant bumping / spamming / duplicating threads
* for the most part a complete lack of arguments ("Lab sucks" is not an argument)

You are doing a disservice to your cause and alienating people who would otherwise be neutral (like me), to come and counter your BS.

Carry on.

Yeah there are actually 5 points that make a certain points. I mean I can observe aggressive behavior on both sides, but that is not the point. If you don't want to make a point, it doesn't really make a difference if you are aggressive or not. If you want to make a point, you should do that in a polite way.

So here are two statistics you should do for your list:

a) List the amount of Threads, that use words like Fuck, Suck, Garbage, Crap or are in any other way the total opposite of constructive.

b) List the amount of Threads in which the initial post is actually positive and not negative. I mean look at this thread https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1706797, he said he doesn't like the Lab but the Uber lab is totally fine and doable and he will farm it... that is incredible negative

I also don't know how you qualify that a thread intended to discuss problems with the labyrinth, I give you a totally cool example (the benefit of your list is that I don't have to search for them):

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It's the beginning of the end!

I've seen this so many times. A big game dev makes a stupid decision, and suddenly a "vocal minority" starts to complain like hell. It seems OK for a while, but sooner or later within a couple of years, the mass exodus of players takes a toll and the game is considered dead. Mark my words.

First the Labyrinth wasn't even mentioned, neither are any problems or concerns it is... I'm not even sure how to categorize is. If someone makes a Thread saying "Lab is so bad" you would expect to read something about the lab in there... but not really.

And if you want another Statistic... I guess this guy made 6 or 7 threads all by himself... none of them had any reasoning.


So instead of counting threads which might or might not have anything to say about the labyrinth (or even compliment it) a better idea would be to actually answer some more decisive questions about what is actually bad.

If the Lab is boring than that is fine, because honestly this is true for more parts of the game and they are all even more mandatory than the lab, because you have to move through them. Basically all of normal is pretty boring. Low mob density, low movespeed and lack of supports or skills you want to use makes it not that fun, exspecially when you have played a lvl80 char running through maps before. So boring might have been an argument to not implement the lab in the first place but since its there, it is not really worth to put any more effort in, exspecially if only the traps are boring, which are a rather small part of the lab.

Or is the lab too hard? Well you can overlevel two parts massively and even merc is a joke with lvl70+. Maybe just traps are too hard... which again is odd if they are also boring, they are also easy to skip with movement skills, only the uber lab has some harder gauntlets.

Or maybe because Traps Ignore defenses? Maybe like Spells ignore Evasion, Physical Hits ignore resistances, Chaos Damage ignores Energy Shield or Elemental Damage ignores Armor? Yes having life ignored is odd, but honestly it is good. Right now Life is basically the number one stat and the lab didn't even fix that, because it doesn't ignore life outright (if that would be the case you would be instantly dead) it simply levels it and threads all pools equally. That's new and if you want to make a low HP char to benefit from flasks to run the lab, you can do it. Same way you don't really need much Cold or Chaos Resist during the Atziri fight, just put on 2 Mings and Carnage Heart and roll over the thing and use flasks, totally valid. Specific preparations for certain things aren't new.


And honestly I shouldn't be the one giving the arguments to work with. The most obvious reason people hate it might actually be that you can't just suicide yourself through it. Which would be a valid argument, but obviously people seem to be too ashamed to actually acknowledge that the lab might provide difficulties to them.

"OMG people are being mean, they are swearing mom, muh feelings!!!"

Grow some balls... people that made the threads swearing is angry because the lab dosent respect their time or their desicions, i did one and i know for a FACT why i sweared, because:

1- i didnt chose to play hardcore, i just wanted to have fun in an ARPG collecting crap and killing hordes of fuckers, so it DOSENT respect my desicions.

2- The game is realle fun but this stupid lab thing DOSENT respect my time, it makes me do it over and over again and its not short, its a really frustrating experience specially when you are a new player and you dont even know its there... i for on not gonna do any more characters until that crap is gone, and if its not gone then when im done with this character ill be done with the game.


In short its frustration and people are just expressing it and its not a bad thing, sorry but not only people that pretend to be happy, all jolly and all that crap (snowflakes) have the right to express themselves.

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What can be done about this without changing this ting a lot?

Is really, REALLY simple:

Put stupid checkpoints every 2 rooms and always 1 before every boss fight.

IS THAT EASY PEOPLE.

The labyrinth is not bad per se, the problem is the whole "do it all all over again" is just crap.

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frenrihr wrote:

"OMG people are being mean, they are swearing mom, muh feelings!!!"

Grow some balls... people that made the threads swearing is angry because the lab dosent respect their time or their desicions, i did one and i know for a FACT why i sweared, because:

1- i didnt chose to play hardcore, i just wanted to have fun in an ARPG collecting crap and killing hordes of fuckers, so it DOSENT respect my desicions.

2- The game is realle fun but this stupid lab thing DOSENT respect my time, it makes me do it over and over again and its not short, its a really frustrating experience specially when you are a new player and you dont even know its there... i for on not gonna do any more characters until that crap is gone, and if its not gone then when im done with this character ill be done with the game.


In short its frustration and people are just expressing it and its not a bad thing, sorry but not only people that pretend to be happy, all jolly and all that crap (snowflakes) have the right to express themselves.

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What can be done about this without changing this ting a lot?

Is really, REALLY simple:

Put stupid checkpoints every 2 rooms and always 1 before every boss fight.

IS THAT EASY PEOPLE.

The labyrinth is not bad per se, the problem is the whole "do it all all over again" is just crap.

This seems to be a very common complaint. There are many valid reasons for this complaint. Trying to have a block of time where the player knows that they will be able to complete the whole labyrinth can be very difficult for some people with kids, full time jobs, and other responsibilities, for example. I consider it a bad decision for a game to have this kind of restriction as it will have to alienate and frustrate a large number of the player base.

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This seems to be a very common complaint. There are many valid reasons for this complaint. Trying to have a block of time where the player knows that they will be able to complete the whole labyrinth can be very difficult for some people with kids, full time jobs, and other responsibilities, for example. I consider it a bad decision for a game to have this kind of restriction as it will have to alienate and frustrate a large number of the player base.

Well it is a very reasonable complaint, which is even discussed in another, more constructive post with actual solutions.

There are two reasons why it is something to be considered:

a) Time. PoE usually offers a lot of waypoints which makes playing short bursts very easy. The lab though can be a rather lengthy part without that.

b) Stability. This is not really limited to the lab, losing maps due to DCs or Instance Crashes is a similar issue, but for the lab it is a bit different.

So if the instance crashes there isn't that much you can do to it, even if you would have a waypoint, the instance is dead, you need to recreate it, which you cannot allow due to the ability to farm Treasure Chests that way. But Instances Crashes are rare in the Lab and against DCs it would work. It would still require a bit different tech, because you vaguely need to store informations about the lab (which Izaro mechanisms were triggered, opened treasure etc.), but it is doable.

But the thing here is:

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1- i didnt chose to play hardcore, i just wanted to have fun in an ARPG collecting crap and killing hordes of fuckers, so it DOSENT respect my desicions.

This is not a good reason. Because it is not hardcore. You can die as often as you want. And it isn't even the first somehow hardcore element in Standard. Zanas one Portal Missions are actually even more hardcore by this definition because you can't try again. Doing Bandits is pretty hardcore too, because you have to start over.

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Grow some balls... people that made the threads swearing is angry because the lab dosent respect their time or their desicions, i did one and i know for a FACT why i sweared, because:

I don't mind them... I just ignore them. And I wouldn't blame someone who is actually addressed by that feedback to do the same. If you want someone to listen to you it is up to you to present it in a way they actually feel like they should listen. And although those Lab Threads consist of some very decent examples of how not to provide feedback, there are also threads showing the opposite.

A lot of those threads also commented on issues that are fixed.

1. Are people complaining about Labyrinth or Uber Labyrinth. Seems to me only Uber Labyrinth is being complained about. As such I see no problem here. Your first 6 points are easy to get, the last 2 only if you can handle the challenge. GGG is not required to make all points accessible to everyone, just like shaper is not mean't to be accessible by every one, just like Uber Atziri is not mean't to be accessible by everyone. If you can't do it change your gear for survivability, make your movement skill faster, and buy an Uber Lab carry. Also while Izaro has tons of traps in 3rd fight, there are never traps in front of the entrance, and there is enough room there to run or kite around him, albeit closely.

Point 2 - when complaining about something a good skill to have is to give solutions as well, that are well thought out.

One common requested solution is add the ability to have limited portals like maps. The problem with this is keys. You are not allowed to put silver keys for example in your stash when in labyrinth. If they allow you to use portals they would need a way to remove them from your inventory, and put them back if you return, but only if it is the same instance. If people can hoard keys it makes it to easy to get through lab if you already know the shortest and fastest route, which is posted every day online and on reddit. IT would be very time consuming and difficult to implement a work around to solve this problem.

Another common complaint is time. Lab runs take about 30 minutes if you are built specifically for lab runs, maybe an hr if not. As such people would rather see that time cut significantly. They could make the area overall smaller, meaning less travel time, less traps, and less time wasted. Alternatively they could remove traps to speed up progression. They can also change trap damage to flat damage instead of a percent making them a little less deadly and more doable in hardcore. This is the reason juggernaut is so popular as Uber Lab is no problem for them. I feel bad for other classes that have low hp pools, or low life.

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Jgizle wrote:

1. Are people complaining about Labyrinth or Uber Labyrinth. Seems to me only Uber Labyrinth is being complained about.

No, I would say most complaints are about the standard Labyrinth (and the complaints were there long before the uber lab was even introduced).

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As such I see no problem here. Your first 6 points are easy to get, the last 2 only if you can handle the challenge.

I think most people would agree (I do anyway) that the uber lab is endgame content that isn't supposed to be accessible to everyone (in practice, it's probably only accessible to the 1% or so).

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Point 2 - when complaining about something a good skill to have is to give solutions as well, that are well thought out.

Here's my solution: completely remove ascendancy points from the lab and make the lab entirely optional. Don't mess around with elaborate half-measures. I can assure you this solution is well thought out. If GGG hadn't screwed up by releasing the lab and ascendancy classes all in one fell swoop and linked inextricably together, no one would be fixated on the principle that the lab is the only legitimate way to earn ascendancy points, as some lab-defenders now seem to be. If almost no one runs the lab after that, then it's the lab's problem.

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Another common complaint is time. Lab runs take about 30 minutes if you are built specifically for lab runs, maybe an hr if not.

Time is one issue but a minor one. And the time required isn't just a matter of build, it's also a matter of how much practice you've had. People (like me) who hate the lab have no desire to spend a lot of time running the lab just so they can git gud and run the lab quickly so they can spend less time in the lab...

I see two main types of objections to the lab (excluding the usual "boss is too tough" complaints):

(1) Some people don't like the requirement of a complete play through of the lab with only one try, either because they don't have the time to invest in a long run, or they get annoyed when they die or disconnect and have to start again from the beginning.

(2) Other people don't like the trap gameplay in the lab and feel that it putting core character development aspects behind a different kind of game play from the rest of PoE is wrong.

For me, (1) doesn't bother me at all. I play HC anyway, so ditching out of a bad situation and trying again is no problem as far as I'm concerned. Getting lagged/disconnected and killed on traps is another matter though. Lag/disconnects can happen anywhere, of course, but I think the ones that happen in the lab are more dangerous.

(2) Is what I really object to (as I believe many others here do also). I hate the trap-type game play (with unavoidable, unkillable traps that do percentage damage if you do get hit by them). I think GGG has made a truly awful decision to put ascendancy classes behind the lab (in an apparent effort to force people to play through the labyrinth whether they like it or not).

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They can also change trap damage to flat damage instead of a percent making them a little less deadly and more doable in hardcore.I feel bad for other classes that have low hp pools, or low life.

Evasion-based characters (as I mostly play) don't have such an easy time of the lab either, flasks notwithstanding. As far as your reasonable solution goes, many people seem to object to the reasonable idea of making trap damage scale like other types of damage in PoE because apparently it's a comeuppance for the lab objectors who mindlessly faceroll through everything else in the game (as all my solo, self-sound HC characters in the temp leagues do).

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Emphasy wrote:

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1- i didnt chose to play hardcore, i just wanted to have fun in an ARPG collecting crap and killing hordes of fuckers, so it DOSENT respect my desicions.

This is not a good reason. Because it is not hardcore. You can die as often as you want. And it isn't even the first somehow hardcore element in Standard. Zanas one Portal Missions are actually even more hardcore by this definition because you can't try again. Doing Bandits is pretty hardcore too, because you have to start over.

I compared it to hardcore because its similar, you lose all your progression of that part of the game, people like me dont play hardcore because we dont like to lose progression, time and frustration, we wantr to just enjoy our time in the game, challenges are good but there is a fine line betweeen a good challenge and acheap abussive system.


Like i said, just put some fucking checkpoints everything gets solved by that.

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Here's my solution: completely remove ascendancy points from the lab and make the lab entirely optional. Don't mess around with elaborate half-measures. I can assure you this solution is well thought out. If GGG hadn't screwed up by releasing the lab and ascendancy classes all in one fell swoop and linked inextricably together, no one would be fixated on the principle that the lab is the only legitimate way to earn ascendancy points, as some lab-defenders now seem to be. If almost no one runs the lab after that, then it's the lab's problem.

Actually nobody said that. But it needs time and effort to create something else. My suggestion was an Arena, with the only thing you have to do is survive. An Arena is also not that hard to implement, a lot of bosses are already in the game, just put them there maybe add a few of them together and you are done. We even have the right tileset for it already.

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Evasion-based characters (as I mostly play) don't have such an easy time of the lab either, flasks notwithstanding. As far as your reasonable solution goes, many people seem to object to the reasonable idea of making trap damage scale like other types of damage in PoE because apparently it's a comeuppance for the lab objectors who mindlessly faceroll through everything else in the game (as all my solo, self-sound HC characters in the temp leagues do).

That wouldn't really work.... how much damage should it do? If we balance it around a regular Eva Archer with 5k HP a Juggernaut can camp inside every trap. If the traps are balanced similar to basically all physical damage in the game (iE around having protection against it) evasion based archers will likely take more damage than they take now without many options to do something against it.

Right now there are plenty of options to protect yourself. Using Immortal Call and Endurance Charges is only one, but you can get 20% damage reduction from a Flask which reduces damage already by a lot. Right now trap damage is as unbuildspecific as it propably could be. They could have entirely fixated the damage, but thats basically it.