Over 430 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 1040 posters in support DONE!!!!!

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alhazred70 wrote:

TL;DR Fun is subjective, this is a Hard core game, perhaps not designed for people who can't manage to do with two hands what one handicaped guy does with only his mouth.

So fun is subjective, you believe its fun.. great, go enjoy it then. You don't need to come into a forum thread and simply tell everyone that their opinion is invalid. Almost every lab thread basically derails into people bashing each other. Inside these threads are little gems here and there of great ideas to improve the experience.

I personally don't enjoy the lab because its too easy. Outside of the first several tries, I find that just running through with movement skills makes for a poor experience. I tried ditching the movement skills and taking it slow and that didn't help either. The patterns are far too basic to be satisfying for me.

I personally think that the lab has a great base ground work for something even better. So I like to discuss ways I think it can be improved. Will GGG change it to my image of it... probably not. But I still like to participate in discussions like this anyway. While there are people who bash the lab for the sake of it. There are plenty of players who have given great ideas to improve the experience. I'm not really sure where you are getting this idea that everyone who hates the lab just flat out sucks at gaming.

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raics wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

As for the rest of your post, you are simply claiming that you know better than others what other people are thinking and feeling.

The way I see it, he's claiming that people are thinking or feeling something entirely different from what they're saying. It isn't exactly unheard of but it's kinda hard to check.

Thanks for the clarification.

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The_Reporter wrote:

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raics wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

As for the rest of your post, you are simply claiming that you know better than others what other people are thinking and feeling.

The way I see it, he's claiming that people are thinking or feeling something entirely different from what they're saying. It isn't exactly unheard of but it's kinda hard to check.

And if you also believe that, you're also full of 'it'.

That's an important "if". My reading was that raics was not trying to push that point of view though.

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The_Reporter wrote:

And if you also believe that, you're also full of 'it'.

Well, there's a interesting dialogue on the subject in a book I've read once, it goes something like this:
- Show me your personal documents, please.
- Here you go, good sir.
...
- Papers are easily forged, sir, maybe we should keep him in for a while just in case.
- Indeed they are, but checking them properly takes too much time so I've got a rule of taking them at face value if the subject seems to have a legit reason for being on the road. You may go.

Considering I'm not paid to get to the bottom of all this, I'll graciously assume everyone here speaks the truth and nothing but it, and you never heard me saying otherwise.

However, if I may, I'll take a moment to shed some light on the usual procedure for rough statistical data evaluation that would be applied in this case if you wanted to do it fast:
- 20% is lying
- 20% had an issue that was handled
- 20% are double accounts or looking for an excuse to quit

It isn't very accurate but it's really hard to be accurate with highly subjective data. So, if you were ever wondering why isn't GGG taking all this seriously, the real reason I mean, that would be because they probably did the same thing.

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Severance2hBlade wrote:

...snip...
Personally i only play Hardcore & have completed Lab 20+ times (norm-cruel-merc-no carries) without dying once (though i have died plenty of times out of Lab). I still dislike it, i still find it unfun. That doesn't mean that i'm right & someone who feels differently is wrong. I may disagree with him but i can also respect his opinion. It is simply a feeling, a condition (which in this case has nothing to do with skill as you claim) that urges you to express it in words as an opinion.
...snip...

My guess is that for both hardcore and softcore league players have close to the same percentage of people that think labyrinth is not fun. Although I think the more severe hatred of labyrinth is felt on the hardcore side. I would say here that the reason why is because deaths in labyrinth are more frequently unfair. However, since "fair" is such a controversal word of late I'll resist that urge, so please ignore that. :-) These are just my guesses as I already stated although it would be interesting to know what these kind of percentages actually are.

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Zrevnur wrote:

[...]

So you lack knowledge of the definitions, and went some definition is not convenient to you, you just call them "too limiting" ?

/ROFL
What a waste of time.

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raics wrote:

It is expected we should be familiar with the common terms and concepts, you can't really participate in the discussion if you aren't. Try following a DoTA match commentary without knowing what jungling or mid lane is.

^

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Severance2hBlade wrote:

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BodyHammer01 wrote:

This is exciting. Let's keep debating the definition and usage of the word fair for the next few hours.

This is the result of someone not caring at all for what kind of context the other person is using not only the word "fair" but any other word that annoys him\her. Most likely you will get dragged to a pointless philosophical discussion that has nothing to do with your initial opinion, which was quoted immediately after.

That person does not deserve this kind of attention.

Kudos to Zrevnur for his elegant & open-minded speech.

Oh right, you are the one that threw something silly, completely and blatantly miss-using a word that you do not even understand to try to justify your "position" when you had nothing else to back it up.
And when somebody went brain masturbating ( completely ignoring your actual message because otherwise it was obvious that there was nothing to actually discuss )　about it, since of course you had absolutely nothing, you just thought that it was a good idea to say "thank you" because everybody forgot how silly what you said was (or so you thought) ?
Is that it ?
Let's just quote it again :

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Severance2hblade wrote:

Point being that removing Ascendancy from Lab would be just, fair because now it isn't, especially for Hardcore.

Not fair especially for hardcore ?
/rofl rofl rofl, so much trolling at this point.
You are not even capable of explaining yourself, but that might just be because you have nothing substancial here, it's just bitching, plain and simple.

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Severance2hblade wrote:

There might be a minority that behaves like that. The majority of players though that, more or less, don't like the Lab, have no problems completing it many times over with very few deaths. They still don't like it & they still find it to be not fun.

BS, plain and simple.
You are talking about stuff that you have no idea about one more time, you have no data, you have absolutely nothing.

The fact that you don't even understand the difference between the kind of game (@hardcore) and the technical league that GGG implemented is mind-blowing.

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severance2hblade wrote:

All i can say is that you have no shame using the disability of another person in such a manner, to outright insult people you no nothing about.

No it's not, you completely missed the point, and are trying to use fallacies to your advantages because you cannot actually answer it.
Point is ( since you don't seem to get it, a obvious as it is ) : people with handicapped can do it, so it should be nothing but impossible/insurmountable for people without a handicap to do it.

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Severance2hblade wrote:

Personally i only play Hardcore & have completed Lab 20+ times (norm-cruel-merc-no carries) without dying once

Funny, really funny how both of your characters have only 4 ascendancy points.

LOL
It's really in line with what's you've been doing here though.

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Fruz wrote:

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Zrevnur wrote:

[...]

So you lack knowledge of the definitions, and went some definition is not convenient to you, you just call them "too limiting" ?

Sufficient reason for why "Treating people equally without favouritism or discrimination." is too limiting: The word "fair" can be used on entities which are not people.

We are speaking about the lab being fair to players, in HC as well as in SC.
players are people, or are you not ?
But anyway, it's stating what has been already said again :

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raics wrote:

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Zrevnur wrote:

I am not familiar with such "subculture" definitions/common_uses. Nor would I expect everybody posting here to be. Which is part of my point.
I didnt even know there was a "special gaming subculture meaning" of the word 'fair'.

You saw it yourself, you can't use the usual definition, it doesn't fit.

That's because it applies to player behavior, not game conditions. A PvP game has rules because players need to follow them and they are the same for both sides, a PvE game has rules to give you a predictable playing environment, those are two different things.

It is expected we should be familiar with the common terms and concepts, you can't really participate in the discussion if you aren't. Try following a DoTA match commentary without knowing what jungling or mid lane is.

I believe that this explanation should be simple enough, you can understand it.

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Fruz wrote:

We are speaking about the lab being fair to players, in HC as well as in SC.
players are people, or are you not ?

Example: Somebody saying "lab is unfair" may refer to builds and not people.

My original statement was to point out that different people use "fair" in different ways with different context. This ("We are speaking about the lab being fair to players") exactly highlights this: You have your own idea of what "we" are talking about. But "we" are clearly not talking about the same thing. Specifically I am not solely talking about fairness between players.