Over 430 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 1040 posters in support DONE!!!!!
I would like to recap where Shovelcut's false claim sits regarding this thread list evolving into something different from the original list.
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Shovelcut wrote:
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Severance2hBlade wrote:
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Shovelcut wrote:
If calling out bullshit claims and questionable data collection methods is "undercutting Turtles message" then the message is severely flawed.
What seems to be flawed (for everyone questioning this thread) is your perception of its purpose\intent, which was clear from the beginning.
You're right, it was clear in the beginning because it was simply a record of all laby hate feedback threads. It evolved into something else, and the claims became something else.
The thread isn't what's being questioned. It's the methods and claims of the thread creator that is being questioned.
To which I responded
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Turtledove wrote:
My methods and claims have not changed from the beginning. The thread list was and still is simply a record of all labyrinth problem/dislike threads (minus Izaro and Enchant threads). You have tried to change it into something else. Since I wasn't interested in your changes that would have required subjective evaluation and endless debate you got butt hurt.
Then Shovelcut responded
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Shovelcut wrote:
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Turtledove wrote:
My methods and claims have not changed from the beginning.
Now that's a lie.
Shovelcut has apparently refused to respond to my request for an explanation as to what he thinks the lie is. He's made false claims that the thread list has evolved into something different and the methods and claims are now invalid. These are bold statements that seem on topic to this thread if Shovelcut can possibly explain himself. I note that he has posted to the forum today but just not in response to this. Since he is apparently instead trying to be evasive and non responsive, we should all conclude that Shovelcut has simply gone off the deep end again and he should be summarily dismissed as posting innate blather unworthy of any intelligent consideration or discussion.
Over 430 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 1040 posters in support (thread # 1702621) Thank you all! GGG will implement a different method for ascension in PoE2. Retired!
Everybody has a right to an opinion, after all. But, if you do then you might want to carefully reflect about whose argument, in the end, is actually the turd.
That was an idiom, and I was praising the man, he's doing a lot with so little.
Wish the armchair developers would go back to developing armchairs.
So what was the point, that anyone can make up his own set of rules that will show that element X is being unfair to element Y? Well duh, but that won't get us anywhere, rules don't work unless they're universal so we should always look for the common ground.
Pretty much.
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Zrevnur wrote:
[...]
Let me show you what you are doing in a more silly way to make it more obvious :
"Baseball isn't a fair game, because it isn't fair to people with a walking handicap"
.
well
...... duh!
Words have meaning(s), you trying to distort them to your will for your convenience does not make what you are saying true.
And yes, this is the general definition of fair that I gave you.
As an example, I just took the five first definition that google threw at me, and they all basically said the same thing.
Feel free to prove me wrong if you can.
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EnjoyTheJourney wrote:
Getting GGG to recognize the scale and the ongoing nature of the negative response to lab, after it was publicly written off by a key representative of GGG as involving not much more than a handful of people, is an essential first step to achieving change.
Ok, let's be honest even though it's stating the obvious here:
GGG has a much, much, much better idea of the scale and the ongoing nature of the negative response to the lab that you will ever ever have, or anybody else that isn't from GGG's staff here.
You thinking otherwise is arrogant at best.
About Turtle, he is trying to help shifting the balance in favor of changing the lab (or making it optional, as delusional as I think it is), and he is trying very hard, and not one can take that from him.
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so there is actually 6 less trials we have to do in 3.0 if i understand the manifesto correctly. 3 for cruel/3 merciless. too bad the rest of the labyrinth will remain the same. what will happen to the offerings for endgame lab?
The endgame labyrinth will still have 6 trials.
SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.
Last edited by Fruz#6137 on May 26, 2017, 11:23:25 AM
Since GGG gave response how to address instances of lab that are currently on cruel and merciless i'm pretty much satisfied. No more leaks of content upon major update.
P.S.: We need to see applied those upgrades that were applied on cruel/merciless acts 1, 2 and 3, as after update 3.0 there will be no cruel and no merciless anymore, and it would be a waste losing those upgrades already made at Oak fight for example.
you trying to distort them to your will for your convenience does not make what you are saying true.
I am not distorting the meaning of the word. You are trying to limit the general meaning of the word to some specific meaning/s. The point which you dont seem to understand is that some words (fair here) dont have enough meaning themselves (without context) - so their meaning relies on context. And my point is consequently that without actually providing such context any statements including "fair" will be prone to be interpreted differently.
You gave this example: "Baseball isn't a fair game, because it isn't fair to people with a walking handicap".
Lets add some context: We have a committee in a hospital which needs to decide on a game for some celebration or sth. Somebody makes that statement. Obviously (I am guessing here) you didnt mean this statement in this context. But you didnt provide a context either. So this statement can also serve to demonstrate what I mean.
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Fruz wrote:
And yes, this is the general definition of fair that I gave you.
As an example, I just took the five first definition that google threw at me, and they all basically said the same thing.
Feel free to prove me wrong if you can.
1.
in accordance with the rules or standards; legitimate.
"the group has achieved fair and equal representation for all its members"
synonyms: just, equitable, honest, upright, honorable, trustworthy; More
impartial, unbiased, unprejudiced, nonpartisan, neutral, even-handed;
lawful, legal, legitimate;
informallegit, on the level;
on the up and up
"the courts were generally fair"
antonyms: unjust, biased
just or appropriate in the circumstances.
"to be fair, this subject poses special problems"
archaic
(of a means or procedure) gentle; not violent.
Baseball
(of a batted ball) within the field of play marked by the first and third baselines.
Baseball
pertaining to the fair part of the field.
"the ball was hit into fair territory"
2.
(of hair or complexion) light; blond.
synonyms: blond/blonde, yellowish, golden, flaxen, light, light brown, ash blond More
"fair hair"
pale, light, light-colored, white, creamy
"Hermione's fair skin"
antonyms: dark
(of a person) having a light complexion or blond hair.
3.
considerable though not outstanding in size or amount.
"he did a fair bit of coaching"
synonyms: reasonable, passable, tolerable, satisfactory, acceptable, respectable, decent, all right, good enough, pretty good, not bad, average, middling; More
informalOK, so-so, ‘comme ci, comme ça’
"the restaurant was fair"
moderately good though not outstandingly so.
"he believes he has a fair chance of success"
4.
(of weather) fine and dry.
synonyms: fine, dry, bright, clear, sunny, cloudless; More
warm, balmy, clement, benign, pleasant
"fair weather"
antonyms: inclement
(of the wind) favorable.
"they set sail with a fair wind"
synonyms: favorable, advantageous, benign; More
on one's side, in one's favor
"fair winds"
antonyms: unfavorable
5.
archaic
beautiful: attractive.
"the fairest of her daughters"
(of words, a speech, or a promise) false, despite being initially attractive or pleasing; specious.
adverb
adverb: fair
1.
without cheating or trying to achieve unjust advantage.
"no one could say he played fair"
2.
dialect
to a high degree.
"she'll be fair delighted to see you"
nounarchaic
noun: fair; plural noun: fairs
1.
a beautiful woman.
verbdialect
verb: fair; 3rd person present: fairs; past tense: faired; past participle: faired; gerund or present participle: fairing
1.
(of the weather) become fine.
"looks like it's fairing off some"
I have looked up the next few definitions ('"fair" dictionary' as search term) and they are all similar. This is consistent with my own understanding of the word.
No wonder it's lost, it's in the middle of the jungle!
The word fair follows logical and precise rules, and you cannot just try to make it say whatever you want to your convenience.
Fair means that everything in the context is treated equally, period.
Lets spend a minute or two on the definition that you are quoting :
in accordance with the rules or standards; legitimate.
It's exactly what we have here, the lab follows that game rules, and all players do follow those rules while running the lab.
The lab treats all players equally, no discussion about this, because if we start speaking of connection problems here then all real time internet based games are unfair to all of their players.
How silly is such a claim ?
If you think that it isn't, there is then absolutely no point continuing, you can continue with your very biased opinion on this with other people, I don't know who will want to though.
When we are talking about baseball's rules, we are obviously not applying it to paralympic games .... duh, one more time.
I though that this example was obvious enough ...
Do you know why paralympic games are not called olympic games ?
Because they are not fair to their players.
They try to all give them a chance even though they have heavy handicaps, by modifying the rules which breaks already the only definition that you dared quoting.
It isn't fair, but it gives them a chance and gives them a purposes in such games.
Now let me just show you the actual full first definitions from google :
Spoiler
"
Home British & World English fair
Main definitions of fair in English: fair1fair2fair3
fair1
adjective
1Treating people equally without favouritism or discrimination.
‘the group has achieved fair and equal representation for all its members’
‘a fairer distribution of wealth’
1.1 Just or appropriate in the circumstances.
‘to be fair, this subject poses special problems’
‘it's not fair to take it out on her’
1.2archaic (of a means or procedure) not violent.
‘try first by fair means’
2(of hair or complexion) light; blonde.
‘a pretty girl with long fair hair’
2.1 (of a person) having a light complexion or hair.
‘he's very fair with blue eyes’
3Considerable though not outstanding in size or amount.
‘he did a fair bit of coaching’
3.1 Moderately good.
‘he believes he has a fair chance of success’
3.2NZ, Australian informal Complete; utter.
‘this cow is a fair swine’
4(of weather) fine and dry.
‘a fair autumn day’
4.1 (of the wind) favourable.
‘they set sail with a fair wind’
5archaic Beautiful.
‘the fairest of her daughters’
5.1 (of words) specious despite being initially attractive.
‘the Sophists have plenty of brave words and fair devices’
"
adjective, fairer, fairest.
1. free from bias, dishonesty, or injustice:
a fair decision; a fair judge.
2. legitimately sought, pursued, done, given, etc.; proper under the rules:
a fair fight.
3.
moderately large; ample:
a fair income.
4.
neither excellent nor poor; moderately or tolerably good:
fair health.
5.
marked by favoring conditions; likely; promising:
in a fair way to succeed.
6.
Meteorology.
(of the sky) bright; sunny; cloudless to half-cloudy.
(of the weather) fine; with no prospect of rain, snow, or hail; not stormy.
7.
Nautical. (of a wind or tide) tending to aid the progress of a vessel.
"
B1 treating someone in a way that is right or reasonable, or treating a group of people equally and not allowing personal opinions to influence your judgment:
a fair trial
Why should I have to do all the cleaning? It's not fair!
It's not fair on Joe (= it is not right) to make him do all the work!
It's not fair that she's allowed to go and I'm not!
It's not fair to blame me for everything!
She's scrupulously fair with all her employees (= she treats them all equally).
UK She claims her article was a fair comment on (= a reasonable thing to say about) a matter of public interest.
He offered to do all the cleaning if I did all the cooking, which seemed like a fair (= reasonable) deal.
B1 If something is fair, it is reasonable and is what you expect or deserve:
I thought it was a fair price that she was offering.
I'm willing to do my fair (= equal) share of the work.
All the workers want is a fair wage for the work that they do.
If a game or competition is fair, it is done according to the rules:
It was a fair fight.
"
1
: pleasing to the eye or mind especially because of fresh, charming, or flawless quality The innkeeper had two fair daughters.
2
: superficially pleasing : specious she trusted his fair promises
3
a : clean, pure fair sparkling waterb : clear, legible an old manuscript written in a fair hand
4
: not stormy or foul : fine fair weather
5
: ample a fair estate
6
a : marked by impartiality and honesty : free from self-interest, prejudice, or favoritism a very fair person to do business withb (1) : conforming with the established rules : allowed (2) : consonant with merit or importance : due a fair sharec : open to legitimate pursuit, attack, or ridicule fair game
7
a : promising, likely in a fair way to winb : favorable to a ship's course a fair wind
8
archaic : free of obstacles
9
: not dark fair skin a person of fair complexion
10
a : sufficient but not ample : adequate a fair understanding of the workb : moderately numerous, large, or significant takes a fair amount of time a fair number of participants
11
: being such to the utmost : utter
a fair treat to watch him — New Republic
SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.
Last edited by Fruz#6137 on May 26, 2017, 11:54:29 AM
in accordance with the rules or standards; legitimate.
It's exactly what we have here, the lab follows that game rules, and all players do follow those rules while running the lab.
You make an assumption: You have your own idea of which rules/standards/whatever ("game rules" for you - whatever exactly these are). Somebody else may have a different idea as to what rules/standards to use as context. Better example to demonstrate this is a statement like "PoE is fair/unfair". But it holds true conceptually in a similar manner for statements like "lab is fair/unfair".
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Fruz wrote:
The lab treats all players equally, no discussion about this, because if we start speaking of connection problems here then all real time internet based games are unfair to all of their players.
But that is so (all online games being unfair) if you define the rules/context in this manner.
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Fruz wrote:
How silly is such a claim ?
I am not trying to judge "silliness" of such claims. I am trying to demonstrate my point.
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Fruz wrote:
When we are talking about baseball's rules, we are obviously not applying it to paralympic games
But this is exactly my point: Something which is obvious to you may not be obvious to someone else.
"
Fruz wrote:
Now let me just show you the actual full first definitions from google :
Spoiler
"
Home British & World English fair
Main definitions of fair in English: fair1fair2fair3
fair1
adjective
1Treating people equally without favouritism or discrimination.
‘the group has achieved fair and equal representation for all its members’
‘a fairer distribution of wealth’
1.1 Just or appropriate in the circumstances.
‘to be fair, this subject poses special problems’
‘it's not fair to take it out on her’
1.2archaic (of a means or procedure) not violent.
‘try first by fair means’
2(of hair or complexion) light; blonde.
‘a pretty girl with long fair hair’
2.1 (of a person) having a light complexion or hair.
‘he's very fair with blue eyes’
3Considerable though not outstanding in size or amount.
‘he did a fair bit of coaching’
3.1 Moderately good.
‘he believes he has a fair chance of success’
3.2NZ, Australian informal Complete; utter.
‘this cow is a fair swine’
4(of weather) fine and dry.
‘a fair autumn day’
4.1 (of the wind) favourable.
‘they set sail with a fair wind’
5archaic Beautiful.
‘the fairest of her daughters’
5.1 (of words) specious despite being initially attractive.
‘the Sophists have plenty of brave words and fair devices’
"
adjective, fairer, fairest.
1. free from bias, dishonesty, or injustice:
a fair decision; a fair judge.
2. legitimately sought, pursued, done, given, etc.; proper under the rules:
a fair fight.
3.
moderately large; ample:
a fair income.
4.
neither excellent nor poor; moderately or tolerably good:
fair health.
5.
marked by favoring conditions; likely; promising:
in a fair way to succeed.
6.
Meteorology.
(of the sky) bright; sunny; cloudless to half-cloudy.
(of the weather) fine; with no prospect of rain, snow, or hail; not stormy.
7.
Nautical. (of a wind or tide) tending to aid the progress of a vessel.
"
B1 treating someone in a way that is right or reasonable, or treating a group of people equally and not allowing personal opinions to influence your judgment:
a fair trial
Why should I have to do all the cleaning? It's not fair!
It's not fair on Joe (= it is not right) to make him do all the work!
It's not fair that she's allowed to go and I'm not!
It's not fair to blame me for everything!
She's scrupulously fair with all her employees (= she treats them all equally).
UK She claims her article was a fair comment on (= a reasonable thing to say about) a matter of public interest.
He offered to do all the cleaning if I did all the cooking, which seemed like a fair (= reasonable) deal.
B1 If something is fair, it is reasonable and is what you expect or deserve:
I thought it was a fair price that she was offering.
I'm willing to do my fair (= equal) share of the work.
All the workers want is a fair wage for the work that they do.
If a game or competition is fair, it is done according to the rules:
It was a fair fight.
"
1
: pleasing to the eye or mind especially because of fresh, charming, or flawless quality The innkeeper had two fair daughters.
2
: superficially pleasing : specious she trusted his fair promises
3
a : clean, pure fair sparkling waterb : clear, legible an old manuscript written in a fair hand
4
: not stormy or foul : fine fair weather
5
: ample a fair estate
6
a : marked by impartiality and honesty : free from self-interest, prejudice, or favoritism a very fair person to do business withb (1) : conforming with the established rules : allowed (2) : consonant with merit or importance : due a fair sharec : open to legitimate pursuit, attack, or ridicule fair game
7
a : promising, likely in a fair way to winb : favorable to a ship's course a fair wind
8
archaic : free of obstacles
9
: not dark fair skin a person of fair complexion
10
a : sufficient but not ample : adequate a fair understanding of the workb : moderately numerous, large, or significant takes a fair amount of time a fair number of participants
11
: being such to the utmost : utter
a fair treat to watch him — New Republic
So you use UK Google or sth maybe. In any case you are rather undermining your own argumentation with the full example. You pick one line. That is not "the meaning" of the word. The "problem" is that there are many (you quoted them) meanings and without lots/full context different poeple will pick a different meaning. The first line is not the meaning of the word. The whole paragraph is the meaning of the word. And with something like "Just or appropriate in the circumstances." its also clear (to me at least) that the "circumstances" need to be defined.
Edit: typo
No wonder it's lost, it's in the middle of the jungle!
Last edited by Zrevnur#2026 on May 26, 2017, 12:23:04 PM
At this point you don't even have a point anymore, you are just splitting hairs at best.
It wasn't UK google, and I'm confident that if I had several English dictionaries ( paper ones ) here, I could take them all and it would all prove my point.
And yes, only one actual meaning is the one that we are talking about.
Should I start debating about the definition of "fair" in the the outlook of someone/something ???
How silly would that be here again ? What kind of fallacy would that be here ?
It would be absolutely pointless.
The whole lines are not the meaning of the words, they are the meanings of the word, which is different.
Honestly at this point you just seem to argue for the sake of arguing, going absolutely nowhere, making everybody waste time.
But you just jumped in a conversation completely avoiding the original statement from which it originated, and just avoiding it, making the conversation go absolutely nowhere at the end.
Have fun brain masturbating with somebody else.
SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.
Last edited by Fruz#6137 on May 26, 2017, 12:29:00 PM
But that is so (all online games being unfair) if you define the rules/context in this manner.
Indeed they are, if nothing else then by difference in time invested, that's always a factor in games where time investment equals power, which includes most PvE online games.
When quoted definitions refer to 'game rules' they mean PvP games, they aren't really meant to include this. In gaming subculture the broadest definition of a 'fair PvE game' is 'game that gives you a fair chance, assuming you have the necessary knowledge and training to play it'. At least I never heard anything more universal than that, if you had, feel free to share it with us.
Wish the armchair developers would go back to developing armchairs.
It wasn't UK google, and I'm confident that if I had several English dictionaries ( paper ones ) here, I could take them all and it would all prove my point.
I just tried another google.com (using a virtual machine in USA) and it gives me the same definition as before. So your result is language/location/person adjusted in some manner.
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Fruz wrote:
And yes, only one actual meaning is the one that we are talking about.
Not exactly sure what you mean here but the line "Treating people equally without favouritism or discrimination." is too limiting.
--
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raics wrote:
When quoted definitions refer to 'game rules' they mean PvP games, they aren't really meant to include this. In gaming subculture the broadest definition of a 'fair PvE game' is 'game that gives you a fair chance, assuming you have the necessary knowledge and training to play it'. At least I never heard anything more universal than that, if you had, feel free to share it with us.
I am not familiar with such "subculture" definitions/common_uses. Nor would I expect everybody posting here to be. Which is part of my point.
I didnt even know there was a "special gaming subculture meaning" of the word 'fair'.
No wonder it's lost, it's in the middle of the jungle!
