Over 430 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 1040 posters in support DONE!!!!!

The way that I look at it is that fairness is significantly a subjective feeling. For example, many have complained that the traps are unfair. My interpretation of that is that players are used to monsters doing fixed damage, not a percentage of life + 60% ES. So it feels unfair to them when a level 70 character can be ripped by normal traps. It is not good when a game feels unfair to people.

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Severance2hBlade wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

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Severance2hBlade wrote:

As you can see i don't imply that "the lab is unfair" but rather that "having Ascendancy bind to it is" & Hardcore just enhances it because you only have 1 Life

This does make a bit more sense, as a starter. Not that it is backed up by anything consistent to me though.
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No need to bring it here honestly.

You say that what i said above makes a bit more sense. And at the end you say i don't need to bring it here.. Sounds like a contradiction to me. Not all opinions need to be backed up by data. What i said made sense (even a bit as you say) without providing any kind of data.

We have been here before. It's a fact many people think the Lab is the worst POE content ever made.
People play games for fun please quantify fun, not explain quantify it.

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You completely missed the point there, it's like you didn't read any of it and wanted to throw the same line you've been throwing over and over again, even though it's not relevant.

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Severance2hBlade wrote:

You say that what i said above makes a bit more sense. And at the end you say i don't need to bring it here.. Sounds like a contradiction to me. Not all opinions need to be backed up by data. What i said made sense (even a bit as you say) without providing any kind of data.

It makes a bit more sense as I can understand where you are coming from, somewhat.
I didn't say that I found it consistent or anything though.

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Turtledove wrote:

The way that I look at it is that fairness is significantly a subjective feeling. For example, many have complained that the traps are unfair. My interpretation of that is that players are used to monsters doing fixed damage, not a percentage of life + 60% ES. So it feels unfair to them when a level 70 character can be ripped by normal traps. It is not good when a game feels unfair to people.

that's not unfair. Percentage dmg is about the most fair to everyone.

they didnt quite have the courage to put a fixed dmg on the traps because some builds are squishy and lab alone would then put a build requirement on them.
But I think they should have that courage. Then we get rid of percent damage and we can faceroll lab after a certain level.

PS the haters are just vocal. There are a lot of people who like the lab. Just for the record.

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Toliman wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

The way that I look at it is that fairness is significantly a subjective feeling. For example, many have complained that the traps are unfair. My interpretation of that is that players are used to monsters doing fixed damage, not a percentage of life + 60% ES. So it feels unfair to them when a level 70 character can be ripped by normal traps. It is not good when a game feels unfair to people.

that's not unfair. Percentage dmg is about the most fair to everyone.

they didnt quite have the courage to put a fixed dmg on the traps because some builds are squishy and lab alone would then put a build requirement on them.
But I think they should have that courage. Then we get rid of percent damage and we can faceroll lab after a certain level.

PS the haters are just vocal. There are a lot of people who like the lab. Just for the record.

A point I was trying to make was that people are used to fixed damage from monsters. So the traps feel unfair to them when it is relatively easy to RIP even when way over leveled. That doesn't happen with monsters. Then you help to demonstrate another point I was trying to make which was that fairness is significantly a subjective feeling because you feel differently about it.

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Toliman wrote:

they didnt quite have the courage to put a fixed dmg on the traps because some builds are squishy and lab alone would then put a build requirement on them.

Sentinels in uber lab/trials (probably) do fixed dmg based on zone level. And they were introduced later than the traps so they deviated from that %based scheme (if its actually true that they dont do %based - not 100% sure).

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Toliman wrote:

But I think they should have that courage. Then we get rid of percent damage and we can faceroll lab after a certain level.

Agree, the %based scheme is one of the things which I dislike about lab. It also leads to abstruse (in thematic sense) consequences such as getting more life being a bad thing vs some traps.
Its also already possible to faceroll it (the traps) after a "certain level" (of anti lab gear/build). Its just a different rule set - you need anti-lab gear/build and not anti mob gear/build.

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Zrevnur wrote:

Sentinels in uber lab/trials (probably) do fixed dmg based on zone level. And they were introduced later than the traps so they deviated from that %based scheme (if its actually true that they dont do %based - not 100% sure).

It's somewhat different, uber trials and uber lab are available after you hit maps and builds tend to have a more consistent baseline at that point, most of them check the minimun number of boxes. Builds vary more during levelling, it's tricky to spit out a fixed number that will still challenge a good levelling build and not utterly destroy some janky scrap heap a less experienced player might use.

So, we might say they tried to give weaker builds a better chance at the cost of making it impossible to fully trivialize just by having higher base stats. I don't think it's that bad of a tradeoff, you just need to keep in mind that 'traps will most likely do a lot of damage to you regardless of your level', it isn't really all that hard to remember. Sure, we can't say it's exactly intuitive, but this game doesn't work on intuition, it works on knowledge base model so having to know the way something works in advance is really nothing new.
Not saying it's good or bad, some games are just made that way, one might draw you a nice, glowing red danger zone as the boss does a dangerous attack and in the other you might have to die a few times to know what's up.

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raics wrote:

It's somewhat different, uber trials and uber lab are available after you hit maps and builds tend to have a more consistent baseline at that point, most of them check the minimun number of boxes. Builds vary more during levelling, it's tricky to spit out a fixed number that will still challenge a good levelling build and not utterly destroy some janky scrap heap a less experienced player might use.

I dont want to guess their reasoning. But the facts (timeline and deviation - if it is true) are there.

The fact that the labyrinth is one of the only challenging ( and one of the most interesting also ) piece of content that the game has to offer is there indeed, thank to this model.

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Fruz wrote:

The fact that the labyrinth is one of the only challenging ( and one of the most interesting also ) piece of content that the game has to offer is there indeed, thank to this model.

Not sure what exactly you mean here but:
Traps are not challenging if you have an anti-trap build. Only Izaro with some buff combinations is still challenging for such a build. But that (Izaro being hard with charges+essences (etc) if you let him have the buffs) is true for almost every build and does not correlate much with trap damage mechanics.