Thoughts from a game dev in the industry ...

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AkuTenshiiZero wrote:

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scale_e wrote:

Type 2) Wooden PC. If you are playing PoE on a ti-83, you'll lag.

Okay, again, I feel like I need to slap some reality into this community. Does anyone here actually believe that people are playing on a PC that can't handle PoE? Have you actually looked at the models in this game? They are laughably bad. Short of the shadows (which I am convinced are broken on the highest setting) there is little to no actual demand on your PC. At worst, you can possibly blame connection, but frankly even the cheapest internet packages can handle a game like this.

Specific scenarios cause lag (loading a Rogue Exile or Prandus mobs). These are events when the game has to load things that aren't part of the zone by default, and the more complex the entity the worse it gets (Rogue Exiles are essentially an AI controlled player character, complete with gear and gems. That's a shitload of stuff to load n a split second).

I'm sure some super-high-end PCs can compensate for the game choking, but you shouldn't need a supercomputer to serve as a crutch for a game that looks like it could have been an XBox title.

Did you even read my entire post? The thing you say causes lag, is exactly what I described as "Type 4". Slap reality into the community? More like slap reading comprehension skills into you?

Next, yes, some people, a great many people in fact, play PoE on shitty 10-15 year old PCs. Why? Because they are poor and this is a free game. I don't know where you live but that's the reality for many people across the world.

Lag in general is complicated as hell. To boil it down to "Hurr durr, GGG fix ur game." Is unreasonable.

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Did you even read my entire post?

U didn't read the OP post too or other ones in the forum. Ur first assumption is <<Wooden PC. If you are playing PoE on a ti-83, you'll lag>> while lots of people with high end pcs got issues and lag too, but u didn't read any of their post it seems, u only kick people back to their problems assuming they are poor and playing with potatoes for 100%, ridiculous fast and wrong assumptions.

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"Hurr durr, GGG fix ur game." Is unreasonable.

And now u even laugh at them while they weren't trolling nor insulting anyone, thats huge. Did u once search about Eu servers like Frankfurt who are dead for like 6 months without anything done ? Player's fault too here i guess right ? there was a thread 3 days ago on reddit too, where players with high end pcs were posting their config to show how ridiculous the memory leaks problems and the optimisation were when ascendancy came out. And performances are debatted for long time without any effort since finally few days from support at reddit after almost 6 months of silence.

Don't expect people to do something u never did once please, and stop laugh at them when they got problems, thats arrogant and childish, thanks you.
U ask people to read when u just see players with issues as trolls. So u don't have problems with the game then no one should ? Come on, how old are you with that attitude ? I feel sorry for you man.

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jcannonb wrote:

Alright,

I have given PoE a second whirl. I have some feedback to give, take it for what it is worth.

I will get the good out of the way immediately:

Your game play, the skill system is phenomenal. I go so far as to say gameplay wise it does surpass D2/D3. Your skill system is why I keep coming back.

Balance is much better than it was two years ago when launched. This was badly needed. I originally tried for the first 30 days or after launch and quit at level 32 because it was too frustrating. This has been fixed I'd say 90%. The other 10% I will discuss in the bad below.

Now with the not-so-good.

After two years, there are some glaring things still wrong since launch that you have not corrected.

1. Gender barriers are horrible lines that went out with D2 back when D2 was popular. While I understand you wanted to make a much better D2 this was an arbitrary line that should never have existed in 2010+

No SCT still. SCT is satisfying feedback that makes the player feel good about how they are doing. You are literally robbing players of joy.

The Maps system was a 2. near-miss copy from Nephilim rifts. While I don't think they should be random drops, I would be willing to live with that if ...

you should allow maps to drop from normal level on.

Normal difficulty should drop maps from Normal Max Level +1 to Cruel Min Level + 5
Cruel difficulty should drop maps from Cruel Max Level +1 to Merciless Min Level + 5
Merciless should stay the way it is.

Part of the reason for this is because Maps are what will keep your game fresh for years to come. Playing the same story-based zones mandatorily for cruel and merciless is a lesson D3 learned and why Adventure mode + Nephilim rifts began to start with. Your maps system is fantastic. You should make it more accessible.

3. There is no satisfying feedback or fanfare when a map systems map is finished. There is no guaranteed legendary drop, there is nothing that makes me want to get to the end of the map.

4. The idea that you only get fix attempts to finish a maps system map is laughable at best.

5. Boss battles are a mess. Especially end of Act3 and end of Act 4. You decided to drop all possible good battle design ideas and make it insane. You went for insane because it was easier to do than trying to craft a smart and difficult boss battle. There is no strategy with either of those fights, it is pray to God and see what works, or grind so much until you are so high you can tank it. There is a middle ground there you missed entirely. The way some of your elite bosses are are how your actual bosses should be.

Path Of Exile is a perfect game battle wise if you remove the bosses, because Elites are great bosses. With bosses in, it is quite over-the-top silly really.

6. The RNG is too R and also too verbose. It is exactly what D3 was when they had their trading house and it was mandatory to find what you needed there. There is no way in your game to be self sufficient 100%. Blizzard has a mechanic in their RNG where you are guaranteed one legendary an hour if one hasn't dropped in the last 60 minutes and further, they allow legendaries to drop from level 10ish. This is another example of where you are all punish all the time. The verbosity comment comes from the vomit of random drop crap. If I am in a dense mob at high level there can be 100 items on screen and I am unable to click on a mob to attack it because it keeps wanting to pick up item. The z ordering of your UI causes this and it is awful. The same happens when I click on a 3 monster pack strong box. If there is a monster under the text of the strongbox I cannot click the monster to kill it because the default action is open the box. How UX friendly is that?

7. Further, blizzard's loot drop is 85% smart. Meaning you get an 85% chance of getting an item that is geared toward your class/build. Your loot vomit would not need to be so prolific and noisy if you made it even a 50% smart drop rate.

8. Your story tries so hard to be smarter and deeper than Diablo's story that it is long, rambling, winding, boring mess. I end up having to skip your story.

9. You make no attempt to hide the Master Piece Theatre voice acting because you can mentally see them next to the fire place in their French chair, with their smoking coat, cigar and a glass of scotch implementing a fake aristocratic import accent to record all the lines.
Because I skip your story I don't I care one bit for the characters you placed in the world. Not caring for the story means there nothing emotionally to tie me to your world.

Ascendency is not an expansion. It is an add-on. An expansion is more than a single random dungeon and 6 new puzzles. An expansion is a new act, almost like act 4, but it was too short. act 4 was 50% shorter than it should have been.

10. Especially for end game when you want people to hang around to have fun, you are too stingy with skill points. After the game is over, you either need to not have a limit cap, or provide a mechanic for continuing to grab skill points (paragon system)

11. I realize you want to make a hardcore, deep game, and you have. There is plenty of room to make it more accessible and more popular for other levels of players, and still keep PoE challenging. You could even implement a casual mode people could turn on if they wanted to.

60% reduced element resistance on merciless is too much. It should have been 40-45%

12. Your client performance right now is in the toilet. I lag everywhere all the time, and I crashed in the middle of end of act 3 boss fight last night. WTF? Given how much I lag and crash and die of lag, the way you have the labyrinth configured is laughable because I am not going to be able to reliably get to the end without suffering catastrophic loss due to circumstances beyond my control.

13. In the end, your game is very brutal and punishing, and there is never really any reward. There is no reason for people to *want* to come back. All we get out of playing your game is self satisfaction a sense of accomplishment, which long term is not enough to keep enough people playing for you to keep the lights on.

If you bring in more players to your game, you will be able to reduce prices in your MTX store and make far more money than the way you currently do.

I am a victim of Stockholm syndrome. As many flaws as there are for this game, I cannot stop playing you. I even gave you money.
I just wish I wanted to play your game. I don't want to, there are too many egregious flaws listed above. I play it because right now I am compelled to. What compels me now is strong, but when it fades I will forget the world, Exile.

I look forward one day to all these issues being addressed so I can want to live in your world.

You have a lot of potential. Your game is a great foundation to build what i would call the first ARPG MMO. I would like to see you do that and be very successful.

1. Lol... really?
2. Rifts are a copy of PoE's maps... lol. Are you serious right here?
3. Because end-game, by definition, has no end. You claim to be game dev, yet you lack knowledge so basic.
4. Your argument and reasoning is also laughable.
5. PoE is not your average hey, look I'm going to smash this area - you better get out of here, because it will hurt! (I will also scream loudly, so you don't forget!). You either learn how to survive, or you will die. This is not bad design - it is you being used to being held by the hand.
6. Look at my sig. Yup, you missed the point where PoE is economy driven, and trade-based. It works. You just missed the point.
Also, there is a thing called Loot-filter in the game, which you missed, too.
7. Get your smart-loot outta here. :P You find stuff, you sell it to people that need it. Some people enjoy trading. It is cool, if you don't, but don't tell us that this is BETTER or worse system.
8. PoE's story is not as important as general lore and history of Wraeclast. The story is not about you, you are not that important. You are just there to explore. Again, being held by the hand issue.
9. Nobody is asking you to - I enjoy PoE's world a lot.
10. No, PoE doesn't NEED to be D3. Leveling to max level in one day sucks donkey-dick, thank you. There is a map system, challenges, God-tier uniques to get. Also, we don't need your power creep bullshit here, thank you, again.
11. Being held by the hand again... You really got weak in that D3 of yours, you know? :D Believe me, some people here complain that PoE got TOO EASY. It is learning curve, and if you don't want to learn, and spend time in PoE, you won't. Nobody is going to hold you by hand, and show you everything, without you having to learn. This is why some of us LOVE this game - you have to learn, you have to spend time mastering the mechanics. It is not simple key-smasher. And I hope GGG will NEVER make it so.
12. Yup, that is a fair point. GGG should remake their engine, because it sucks, big way. I really hope they will. :B
13. Once again... people prefer this game over D3, BECAUSE it is punishing. If game is too easy, you don't feel accomplishment. It feels like you are 6 year old, and you are getting rewards, even if you haven't won, because your parents doesn't want you to be sad.
GGG managed to keep their game running for years now, and they are expanding. Don't you worry about GGG. ;)

Overall, you need to break out of D3-casual curse to enjoy PoE to its fullest. PoE is extremely long term, learning curve is VERY long. Hope you'll stay long enough to love it. :P

Cheers!

Regardless of your thoughts on the post. It has gotten people talking in a very spirited way. Far more than I thought it would. Amusingly, the non-subatantive pot shots at what one may imagine my age, intelligence level, and professional status is more a reflection of you and your insecurities and not me.

Doesn't matter if you agree with me or not.

It is good to see such passion.

Changes need to be made regardless of where you sit.

This discussion will end up making the game better in the long run, because the devs will listen to all voices.

Well done.

Additionally, I have corrected the nephilim rift vs maps timing.

When I am wrong, I will admit it. I was.

Cheers an carry on.

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jcannonb wrote:

Regardless of your thoughts on the post. It has gotten people talking in a very spirited way. Far more than I thought it would.

Doesn't matter if you agree with me or not.

It is good to see such passion.

Changes need to be made regardless of where you sit.

This discussion will end up making the game better in the long run, because the devs will listen to all voices.

Well done.

Lol your post just sparked a massive conversation about how you weren't a dev and just confirmed that the suggestions you made are essentially just make this game d3 plx.

How exactly is that helpful to the devs when multiple people in this thread say you are full of shit and that we don't want to turn PoE into d3.

Essentially nothing you've said has helped in any way whatsoever. The only changes that need to be made are the generic ones that fit both sides of the argument on casual vs hc, like optimization, performance, blah blah, nothing to due with game design or anything relative to that nature.

This is where the difference comes in at how the public player base is taking my comments.

I didn't write my comments for players. I wrote them for GGG looking more at the business.

This game is not a boxed game like Diablo 2 was.

This game is a service it is an entity. It relies on resources to stay alive.

This game is a very niche game currently. Eventually interest in everything fades. It is human nature. Because of this as the hardcore niche base grows bored over time, the whales that keep this game going will disappear eventually. Because the niche player base is so small, it will eventually slow its growth to where it loses more players than it gains.

This is why Ascendency is the way it was. There isn't as much money as there was to make a full expansion.

This means one of two things really. Either the game is about to go into maintenance mode where you won't be much in the way of significant content or the game devs have or will shift focus to a new venture (PoE2 or another project) where they start making the money they did in the first two years again.

PoE is a business, a service. You all look at it as something you consume. They must look at it as a business.

All of my comments are directed toward the business on how they can attract more players, and get good money and get it going again. I don't care if they are harsh words for the hardcore crowd. If the business is to stay afloat it must always acquire new customers.

You never cut off opportunities for players to give you money. In this respect GGG has and continues to as long as the game stays the way it is. GGG will make a ton more money and have a much healthier thriving community by aiming for the center instead of the rabid left.

Niche customer bases are small to start with, and will get smaller. At a certain point there isn't enough money to dev new expansions, and then at some point there isn't enough monthly income to keep the lights on.

I want to help them keep the lights on, even if it means the player base has to move more toward the center and less towards hardcore.

There is a middle ground between where you perceive D3 to be and where this game is.

If you want the business and the service to survive for many years to come, then you have to welcome new people into the game.

to overly simplify things, i could say that PoE is the mirror reflection of what Diablo 3 is.

the only aspect of D3 that is better than PoE's is its performance.
everything else what PoE has to offer far exceeds the simplicity of D3.

personally, i'd hate to see PoE to go in the direction D3 went, to make so many mistakes D3 devs made, to literally go several steps back from what D2 achieved.

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jcannonb wrote:

This is where the difference comes in at how the public player base is taking my comments.

I didn't write my comments for players. I wrote them for GGG looking more at the business.

This game is not a boxed game like Diablo 2 was.

This game is a service it is an entity. It relies on resources to stay alive.

This game is a very niche game currently. Eventually interest in everything fades. It is human nature. Because of this as the hardcore niche base grows bored over time, the whales that keep this game going will disappear eventually. Because the niche player base is so small, it will eventually slow its growth to where it loses more players than it gains.

This is why Ascendency is the way it was. There isn't as much money as there was to make a full expansion.

This means one of two things really. Either the game is about to go into maintenance mode where you won't be much in the way of significant content or the game devs have or will shift focus to a new venture (PoE2 or another project) where they start making the money they did in the first two years again.

PoE is a business, a service. You all look at it as something you consume. They must look at it as a business.

All of my comments are directed toward the business on how they can attract more players, and get good money and get it going again. I don't care if they are harsh words for the hardcore crowd. If the business is to stay afloat it must always acquire new customers.

You never cut off opportunities for players to give you money. In this respect GGG has and continues to as long as the game stays the way it is. GGG will make a ton more money and have a much healthier thriving community by aiming for the center instead of the rabid left.

Niche customer bases are small to start with, and will get smaller. At a certain point there isn't enough money to dev new expansions, and then at some point there isn't enough monthly income to keep the lights on.

I want to help them keep the lights on, even if it means the player base has to move more toward the center and less towards hardcore.

There is a middle ground between where you perceive D3 to be and where this game is.

If you want the business and the service to survive for many years to come, then you have to welcome new people into the game.

Are you assuming GGG doesn't already now this? Do you think they chose to make this particular game for the specific niche market due to a lack of ability to make a game with broader appeal?

Imho you're starting to sound a lot less like a knowledgeable person with an insider's understanding of how the business works and more like some naive kid trying to 'help out' GGG by insulting their intelligence and making thinly veiled requests to make the game more casual friendly.

"

GeorgAnatoly wrote:

Spoiler

"

jcannonb wrote:

This is where the difference comes in at how the public player base is taking my comments.

I didn't write my comments for players. I wrote them for GGG looking more at the business.

This game is not a boxed game like Diablo 2 was.

This game is a service it is an entity. It relies on resources to stay alive.

This game is a very niche game currently. Eventually interest in everything fades. It is human nature. Because of this as the hardcore niche base grows bored over time, the whales that keep this game going will disappear eventually. Because the niche player base is so small, it will eventually slow its growth to where it loses more players than it gains.

This is why Ascendency is the way it was. There isn't as much money as there was to make a full expansion.

This means one of two things really. Either the game is about to go into maintenance mode where you won't be much in the way of significant content or the game devs have or will shift focus to a new venture (PoE2 or another project) where they start making the money they did in the first two years again.

PoE is a business, a service. You all look at it as something you consume. They must look at it as a business.

All of my comments are directed toward the business on how they can attract more players, and get good money and get it going again. I don't care if they are harsh words for the hardcore crowd. If the business is to stay afloat it must always acquire new customers.

You never cut off opportunities for players to give you money. In this respect GGG has and continues to as long as the game stays the way it is. GGG will make a ton more money and have a much healthier thriving community by aiming for the center instead of the rabid left.

Niche customer bases are small to start with, and will get smaller. At a certain point there isn't enough money to dev new expansions, and then at some point there isn't enough monthly income to keep the lights on.

I want to help them keep the lights on, even if it means the player base has to move more toward the center and less towards hardcore.

There is a middle ground between where you perceive D3 to be and where this game is.

If you want the business and the service to survive for many years to come, then you have to welcome new people into the game.

Are you assuming GGG doesn't already now this? Do you think they chose to make this particular game for the specific niche market they choose due to a lack of ability to make a game with broader appeal?

Imho you're starting to sound a lot less like a knowledgeable person with an insider's understanding of how the business works and more like some naive kid trying to 'help out' GGG by insulting their intelligence and making thinly veiled requests to make the game more casual friendly.

Pretty much nailed it. GGG is perfectly capable of making a profitable business they sure as hell don't need help from someone that just praises D3, despite its many many flaws not only from release but flaws that the game has to this very day.


It is a service like game in that it needs a constant stream of revenue in order to pay for servers, staff, ect. But it is actually easier as a non boxed game to acquire that, especially for them because of the rotating supporter packs and mtx market they support. Dota 2 isn't a box game either yet it makes millions and millions per month.

The game is a niche because it was designed for a niche, players in this market are willing to pay substantially more out of pocket then casual players or even a large group of casual players would. I've spent over 1k, probably like 1.5k on supporter packs, that is literally 30 times the value of a boxed copy of a game and I'm not alone. GGG is only supported the way they are because of the large supporter packs they've sold and the ideals of keeping the game as much as a niche game as possible. The more casual this game gets the more larger supporters it loses, many of the diamond supports have left the game with various changes, if even 1\3 of the changes you are purposing happen, they will lose further support from me and players like me.

Losing interest and human nature might be something, but GGG keeps the idea fresh by introducing ladder resets and temp leagues that offer things previous patches haven't. They've added new skills, new expansions, new maps, new act, ect. As long as they add additional content the interest doesn't deteriorate from a player like myself. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about in terms of "losing interest" if you haven't realized that many of us have been here for YEARS. D2 to this day is played by various niche groups of people, it just got a graphical update or at least blizzard made a patch to have it work on newer systems better. Do your research and see when that game came out.


Niche game being smaller is a decent thing, I always welcome new players, but the larger your playerbase becomes the more homogonized it must become in order to satisfy the least common denominator. Not only that cost of increasing playerbase like additional servers, support staff, ect all have negatives as well. However being concerned about losing more players then it gains isn't something GGG has to worry about for a while because it started small and if it goes small again they may have to make changes, reduce the frequency of expansions, new leagues, ect. But it will remain a game that is profitable because the niche market that paid for it to startup is still here to back them up if and when they would need to make "the difficult choice"

Full expansion, dude you have absolutely no idea what the fuck you are talking about. This game is free, its content in it's entirety is free. Expansions don't need to fit your bullshit view of whatever you think an expansion is. GGG has made it clear an expansion is a large addition to the CORE of the game, it doesn't matter if you think its small or not (you'd be a fool to think that) it matters on what players across the board can expect.

Is ascendancy as large as awakening, no it is not, is it as large as masters, vaal expansion, ect, yes it is. Its not a money issue on why it is smaller, its a time issue, they want to release an expansion or core game content at least every year, not only to build hype, but to add to the core of the game. They just competed not even a year ago the awakening expansion which was a massive undertaking.

It means neither of those things, GGG as a company is focused on this game, they don't want to make PoE2 or another game at this time, it isn't logical because this game is clearly profitable. GGG has made no indication of slowing down on adding additional content, if you have some "proof" please provide it.


You absolutely do cutoff opportunities to make money if it sacrifices the core principle of what you've established yourself as. GGG could start selling unique items or passive tree bonuses and still make money, that doesn't mean they should or it is the right thing to do. Much like changing the whole game design to mock a game that while larger in numbers, doesn't produce Blizzard anywhere near the money PoE makes anymore. Was it a large amount of money upfront and with the RoS expansion, sure, but they still have ongoing cost without any methods in various markets of recouping those cost. D3 is a boxed games with all of the "cost" downsides that PoE currently has, it still has to due balancing, season things, and believe it or not they still have to add additional content.


GGG just moved to a new office a larger, likely more expensive location, they are growing, so is the game currently without making any of the dumbass suggestions you've listed in this thread. You think you are some sort of God of game design when all actuality your likely some dumbass programmer that thinks he has a bit of knowledge in regards to the direction GGG should take PoE, you joined like 2 years and some change ago and your highest character is 76. You have no concept of many of the core game designs or the purpose of this game, IMO the reason why you want the suggested changes here are just 100% for your personal reasons that the game requires too much knowledge and effort for you, which anyone that looks at your character profile can easily comeup with the same assessment.


There is a formula in terms of this new people without making casual = good. New people and going full casual = bad. Casual players don't spend $250+ on supporter packs every cycle, hell new players don't have to spend a penny to play this game, this is the reason why D3's business model doesn't work here, new players for them means additional box copy sales, new players here = what exactly? You aren't guaranteed to get money from them here, but GGG is guaranteed to lose long time supporters and future larger $$ from players likely myself if they turn this game into a D3 wanna be piece of shit. (which I don't think you will GGG, I have more faith then that, just trying to make a point)