Thoughts from a game dev in the industry ...

"

Altemeus wrote:

As has been covered, this is a feature that is necessary in D3, and not so helpful in PoE.

Spoiler

To add to the earlier sentiments (unless this has been covered), D3 featured (hopefully changed?) some of the worst stat-building mechanics I have ever seen. Items were plagued with +gold dropped, +loot radius, +Exp, and I believe a few other completely useless stats on top of the useless Intel/Dex stats if you were a Strength hero. If they didn't at least skim on the off-stats that weren't for your class... well, you'd get release D3, which was abhorrent in a number of ways, one being solo gearing. Truth be told, I haven't heard them fix that mess, and don't really plan to return until they make Dex/Intel valuable on Strength heroes like a normal hack and slash, and I'd hope a game designer can see the flaw on showcasing such useless stats, and then "Oops" those mistakes out by simply making your hero not obtain them.

Also, last I saw, D3 was 100% behind primary stat grind. Yeah, there are such things as attack speed and critical chance, but with the stat bonuses in the game, that simply opened a few niche-ish builds with procs on crits and such; most of your damage still came from Dex/Str/Int (plus base weapon damage). Heck, they didn't even separate caster/skirmisher builds effectively with both of them centered on main weapon damage, no matter which weapon. Why are you dissing PoE while praising D3, anyway?

"Smart Loot" is no feature in D3; It's downright critical. I'd say it's hardly a problem in PoE, particularly because building outside the box is encouraged. There was a Strength Wander (Marauder?) showcased a while back. Imagine fitting one of those with "Smart Drops" enabled... Meanwhile, I try to play outside the box in D3, and I get a "Kick of Ytar" (I think?) ranged sniper Monk with basically the exact same stats as any other Monk. What is there to play with, exactly? Where is the fulfillment? Well, let's just say, I hardly care if they found something anymore, as PoE found every bit of flavor they were missing, and more. I wouldn't say it's perfect, by any means (especially for my current system), but it's found a real system that doesn't leave me the room to be disappointed, as I'll just hop off my current build and find more to explore within the game. I did not find that in D3.

This. 100%

"

jcannonb wrote:

Regardless of your thoughts on the post. It has gotten people talking in a very spirited way. Far more than I thought it would. Amusingly, the non-subatantive pot shots at what one may imagine my age, intelligence level, and professional status is more a reflection of you and your insecurities and not me.

Doesn't matter if you agree with me or not.

It is good to see such passion.

Changes need to be made regardless of where you sit.

This discussion will end up making the game better in the long run, because the devs will listen to all voices.

Well done.

I doubt anyone will listen to a voice of someone, who needs to say your insecurities, if someone is in disagreement. Also, your attitude tells me enough - you think you are looking at everyone from up above, but you cannot see there is still plenty on sky up above you.

It other words - if you want to have a discussion, take your head out of your ass, and try to actually discuss things, instead of telling people who they are.

"

jcannonb wrote:

This is where the difference comes in at how the public player base is taking my comments.

1. I didn't write my comments for players. I wrote them for GGG looking more at the business.

This game is not a boxed game like Diablo 2 was.

This game is a service it is an entity. It relies on resources to stay alive.

2. This game is a very niche game currently. Eventually interest in everything fades. It is human nature. Because of this as the hardcore niche base grows bored over time, the whales that keep this game going will disappear eventually. Because the niche player base is so small, it will eventually slow its growth to where it loses more players than it gains.

1. Then write them an e-mail, instead of creating a thread on DISCUSSION BOARD Mr. Professional Game Developer. One would think common office knowledge is known in Professional Game Development, right?
2. You seem to be registered here for ages, yet you write stuff like this. PoE ded gaem, much? Want to bring some Steam charts? Lol.
I'm very curious what kind of games you develop. Mind telling us?

"

AkuTenshiiZero wrote:

"

scale_e wrote:

"I think your argument is weak. You're comparing PoE's RNG to soccer and chess."
No I was not. I was using soccer and chess as an analogy. I was attempting to show how ridiculous it is to change something fundamental to a game. In this case, only using feet in soccer, and taking turns in chess, are fundamental parts of those games, in the same way that strict RNG is fundamental to PoE. At no point did I make a direct comparison to any RNG in either soccer or chess. That would be absurd. Because soccer and chess have no RNG. You know this damn well, and are clutching at straws. You further confound this by bringing up the ages of these games. Which has no relevance to my point, nor your counterpoint.
But, as you previously said, you don't care about my argument.

Y'know, I was just going to let this go because I'm finally tasting the bait that I've swallowed, but god damn, kids today are amazingly good finding ways to draw out arguments.

Did I say that soccer and chess have RNG? No, no I did not. Though, if we're going to be pedantic about things, both of them actually do involve a tiny aspect of random chance. You compared RNG to aspects of soccer and chess. You call it an analogy and not a comparison, but guess what? Analogy is freaking synonymous with comparison. Soccer and chess, as you just clarified, are nothing like PoE. You are comparing apples to oranges. And the reason I brought up the ages of those games was to illustrate that soccer and chess have undergone many iterations and a ton of refinement. PoE is incomplete and subject to change. "Fundamental parts" are being added and changed over time. To make a more fitting comparison, comparing PoE to chess is akin to comparing a half-built house to god damn Notre Dame.

Face it: Your intention was to troll and pick a fight. Hiding it behind spoiler tags doesn't make it invisible. And good fucking Christ, I fell into it. Have a gold star and a juice box, kid. Now comes the part where you predictably find some way to drag this argument out even further, convincing yourself that you've won something.

Now, the main event. :) *Rubs hands delightedly*

"Analogy" and "Comparison" are not synonyms. And, wait for it, two sentences after you claim they are... you use an analogy, in an attempt, to counter my analogy. You know that's crazy right? I could very easily use your logic and respond with "Well, Apples and Oranges are fruit, and nothing like video games."
Oh damn... Right in the irony... My sides.
A comparison is where you take two things, and list all the ways they are alike (or different, as the case may be)
An analogy notes the shared properties of two or more things, and from this basis infers that they also share some further property.
An analogy doesn't assert that the two things are identical, only that they are similar. The two things only have to be similar enough to make your point.

I will explain my analogy:
Chess and soccer are games. PoE is a game. Similar.
Chess and Soccer have fundamental things. PoE has fundamental things. Similar.
Removing the fundamental things from Chess and Soccer would be ridiculous. Removing the fundamental things from PoE would be ridiculous. Inference.

And that's it! That's how an analogy is made!
*Does a tap dance*
*Jazz hands*
Is it hard logic? No, of course not, it's just an analogy. You use them to explain difficult concepts to people. As such, I thought it was warrented... seeing as you are so very determined to misunderstand me at every turn. If you don't trust me, go look it up. "analogy" is not synonymous with "comparison". They are two different concepts.

"PoE is incomplete and subject to change. "Fundamental parts" are being added and changed over time. To make a more fitting comparison, comparing PoE to chess is akin to comparing a half-built house to god damn Notre Dame.
This is very true. However, I would argue the the true RNG crafting and loot drops that PoE is built around are more "fundamental" (if it seems we must gradiate the term). To continue your analogy, the half built house could have any number of windows, doors or fittings. But you can't pull out the frame and put in a different one. The house would collapse. In this analogy, the true RNG systems are the frame. Without it, the house that is PoE would collapse.

Good analogy though.

Face it: Your intention was to troll and pick a fight. Hiding it behind spoiler tags doesn't make it invisible. And good fucking Christ, I fell into it. Have a gold star and a juice box, kid. Now comes the part where you predictably find some way to drag this argument out even further, convincing yourself that you've won something.

My intention was to make a joke. I made it. You misunderstood it. Then you went to war. Much like the US in Iraq, you failed to find your smoking gun, but stayed to fight for a very long time anyway. I assume because you don't want to lose face. And that's ok. Chin up. Soldier on. etc etc. Keep up the ad hominem and age-shaming that is your stock and trade. You further my argument (that you misunderstood my original comment and are in fact all the immature troll you claim I am) every time you do.

It was not my intention to start a fight, you did that. I attempted to clarify what I meant, you refused to accept it.

In the interest of laying this to rest I will concede two points:
1) You are correct, I fucking love this.
2) Am I convinced I've won this argument? You're goddamn right I am.

Fucking called it.

Drops don't need to "D3 smart", guys.
In Titan Quest (and now in Grim Dawn), you select classes after already playing your char for a while.

But loots need to somehow, some way relate to what you just killed, when and how, or what quest you did, choice you made etc'

PoE is so fkn trade-based, its approach to loot is being a collector of scrap so you can accumulate orbs so you can buy what you need.
And once in a very long while, you'd actually drop something. One useful thing in a pile of garbage. And chances are it's not for you so you will need to sell it anyway.

PoE is one of the best ARPGs I ever played, with the absolute worst loot system to ever piss in a player's face.

Dominus exiled you. Left you alone to die in a dangerous land.
But you have only one true enemy. His name is RNGesus, god of fuck you dice.
And he always wins.

"

johnKeys wrote:

Drops don't need to "D3 smart", guys.
In Titan Quest (and now in Grim Dawn), you select classes after already playing your char for a while.

But loots need to somehow, some way relate to what you just killed, when and how, or what quest you did, choice you made etc'

PoE is so fkn trade-based, its approach to loot is being a collector of scrap so you can accumulate orbs so you can buy what you need.
And once in a very long while, you'd actually drop something. One useful thing in a pile of garbage. And chances are it's not for you so you will need to sell it anyway.

PoE is one of the best ARPGs I ever played, with the absolute worst loot system to ever piss in a player's face.

Dominus exiled you. Left you alone to die in a dangerous land.
But you have only one true enemy. His name is RNGesus, god of fuck you dice.
And he always wins.

Heretic!

RNGesus cares not a bit about thy needs! His divine loot tables offer uniform mediocrity to us all!
Lament not your poor rolls, but cherish in the regression to the mean! For whilst he taketh away, he also giveth! Share these gifts with your brothers and sisters in exile!

Lament not the thousand thousand fusings spent in vain, look upon those as a divine tribute unto Him who provides the miracle of two exalts in one day! The miracle of the perfect regal! The miracle of challenges met in the twilight days of leagues end!
RNGesus neither loves nor hates!

I say again, brother John, he neither loves nor hates! Put your heart in your hands and your faith in His.

Hallelujah! Hallelujah!

Glory unto His name, for ever, and ever, amen!

that "gamedev" ignorance depth reaches another bottom at each thread's page.

Erm...

There's a reason why none of us are playing Diablo 3. Why would you copy ANYTHING.


I've had more dynamic and amazing gameplay in the last 2 weeks then my entirely of diablo 3 existence. I don't get to "think" about D3 builds. Even when im not playing POE im thinking about new builds, new tactics. The planning is almost as satisfying as the game itself, and there is a LOT to plan.

And these boss battles are amazing, you are CRAZY. It's been a long time since I've had the shakes from a game, and I got them on Dominus (HC) last time.

"

Perq wrote:

"

jcannonb wrote:

Regardless of your thoughts on the post. It has gotten people talking in a very spirited way. Far more than I thought it would. Amusingly, the non-subatantive pot shots at what one may imagine my age, intelligence level, and professional status is more a reflection of you and your insecurities and not me.

Doesn't matter if you agree with me or not.

It is good to see such passion.

Changes need to be made regardless of where you sit.

This discussion will end up making the game better in the long run, because the devs will listen to all voices.

Well done.

I doubt anyone will listen to a voice of someone, who needs to say your insecurities, if someone is in disagreement. Also, your attitude tells me enough - you think you are looking at everyone from up above, but you cannot see there is still plenty on sky up above you.

It other words - if you want to have a discussion, take your head out of your ass, and try to actually discuss things, instead of telling people who they are.

"

jcannonb wrote:

This is where the difference comes in at how the public player base is taking my comments.

1. I didn't write my comments for players. I wrote them for GGG looking more at the business.

This game is not a boxed game like Diablo 2 was.

This game is a service it is an entity. It relies on resources to stay alive.

2. This game is a very niche game currently. Eventually interest in everything fades. It is human nature. Because of this as the hardcore niche base grows bored over time, the whales that keep this game going will disappear eventually. Because the niche player base is so small, it will eventually slow its growth to where it loses more players than it gains.

1. Then write them an e-mail, instead of creating a thread on DISCUSSION BOARD Mr. Professional Game Developer. One would think common office knowledge is known in Professional Game Development, right?
2. You seem to be registered here for ages, yet you write stuff like this. PoE ded gaem, much? Want to bring some Steam charts? Lol.
I'm very curious what kind of games you develop. Mind telling us?

Such ad hominem bs. Sheep is butthurt because he doesn't like to see the game he supported blindly has issues.
Please don't ask for IRL or job because u just doesn't care, u just ask to get more things to troll as the young GGG crusader u are.

"

It other words - if you want to have a discussion, take your head out of your ass, and try to actually discuss things, instead of telling people who they are.

And what are you trying to do here Mr "i see everything on people's side but never on mine" ?

"

johnKeys wrote:

Drops don't need to "D3 smart", guys.
In Titan Quest (and now in Grim Dawn), you select classes after already playing your char for a while.

But loots need to somehow, some way relate to what you just killed, when and how, or what quest you did, choice you made etc'

PoE is so fkn trade-based, its approach to loot is being a collector of scrap so you can accumulate orbs so you can buy what you need.
And once in a very long while, you'd actually drop something. One useful thing in a pile of garbage. And chances are it's not for you so you will need to sell it anyway.

PoE is one of the best ARPGs I ever played, with the absolute worst loot system to ever piss in a player's face.

Dominus exiled you. Left you alone to die in a dangerous land.
But you have only one true enemy. His name is RNGesus, god of fuck you dice.
And he always wins.

Why didn't anybody complain about rng and ask for some kind of smart drops in D2? The only thing in that game that was remotely close was a quest reward based on your class. A lot of us liked that game and like PoE the way it is. Smart drops are for wusses.