Thoughts from a game dev in the industry ...

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johnKeys wrote:

if you can farm specific places for that specific thing your specific build desires

Tricky issue there. See Divinations Cards for a failed attempt (yes, I know they were balanced for trade because bound on account is sacrilege here even in this evident situation...but the truth is that farm runs are hated by many thanks to stuff like maps). I think targeted RNG could work better for rare items than for Uniques, because it would be relatively easier to predict what kind of stat sticks people would want, and even then Scrotie could be right about GGG not having any idea of how to do it properly.

I'm siding more with Scrotie in this (even if play selffound). Yet there is annoying stuff (like the likehood of getting low rolls at high levels or some completely useless affixes) that could be reworked, but that's it.

I think the idea of customizable loot (via limited crafting) is the way to go because it makes player choose rather than GGG, thereby being more adequate. Also, it doesn't desincentivize farming.

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Sure_K4y wrote:

If everything this game has to offer is given to you for "cheap/free", what value worth going after remains?

There is another side to that: everything could be valuable just because it's punishingly scarce. Maybe we should try to make things valuable not by scarcity but by utility? In the past a lot of stuff was in the two digit exalt range, but I don't think it was better for the game necessarily. It's relative, really.

rares are a very good start actually.
as for "not knowing how to do it", well as said above I think it's more a matter of "do not want to" honestly.

it's not about choosing sides, Nero.
I think we can all agree on concept... yet keep arguing endlessly on implementation.
pointlessly arguing, because GGG will not do any of it. Feedback Forum is just wasted strings of text on a server somewhere. even if the Devs actually read this - and I doubt they do - nothing will happen.

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johnKeys wrote:

rares are a very good start actually.
as for "not knowing how to do it", well as said above I think it's more a matter of "do not want to" honestly.

it's not about choosing sides, Nero.
I think we can all agree on concept... yet keep arguing endlessly on implementation.
pointlessly arguing, because GGG will not do any of it. Feedback Forum is just wasted strings of text on a server somewhere. even if the Devs actually read this - and I doubt they do - nothing will happen.

Nah, don't lose faith. The current temporal leagues are fairly selffound friendly as you have probably read (pissing off the players that invest most time, or the most elitist). It's not that GGG doesn't care, it's really tricky.

Honestly, I think that a more technical proposal would be needed for GGG to move their asses.

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NeroNoah wrote:

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Sure_K4y wrote:

If everything this game has to offer is given to you for "cheap/free", what value worth going after remains?

There is another side to that: everything could be valuable just because it's punishingly scarce. Maybe we should try to make things valuable not by scarcity but by utility? In the past a lot of stuff was in the two digit exalt range, but I don't think it was better for the game necessarily. It's relative, really.

I am not 100% sure what you are going after, but let's examplify a little bit, shall we?

Let's take Shav's as an example, because it just so happens that nobody would complain about having one available. It is a build-enabler, offers high utility for that matter alone, and looks fancy.

So, it does not drop often, and has utility. That being said, it is expensive for two different reasons. If it became less scarce, and more affordable as a result, more people would be trying to buy one, which would increase the demand, resulting in higher prices again. One may argue that it would be nice to just have these items more commonly available, but on the other hand, look at all the people complaining about the "Voltaxic-meta".

Voltaxic rift is the prime example for your suggestion: The drop rate has been increased, and it is no longer gated behind higher-level maps. Even merciless Voll in Dried Lake can drop that thing nowadays. Would you want to run around in parties of 8 players, 6 of which run a Voltaxic build? Doesn't sound like something that encourages build-variety to me, and don't get me started on fire-to-chaos conversion builds...

Now imagine a "Shav's-meta", or a Kaom's meta for that matter. The scarcity of certain items is what makes people figure out other efficient ways to reach their own goals in this game.

That's merely balancing by rarity. Put something obviously better and make it rare so people won't build only around it. It sounds like the parable of the broken window.

Shavronne Wrappings was the reason low life builds were seriously nerfed (there was low life before that), so in the long run the more interesting parts of the build were gutted because GGG introduced a power unique. It always ends being toxic for the whole game (think about the old Kaom's Heart, Crown of Eyes, Atziri's Acuity, etc.).

Lightning coil and Taste of Hate may be rare, but you'd end using it anyway if you could, that only results in people thinking it's Path of Wall Street rather than a hardcore game.

In short, blame dominant options and don't use rarity to hide the gross stuff.

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NeroNoah wrote:

That's merely balancing by rarity. Put something obviously better and make it rare so people won't build only around it. It sounds like the parable of the broken window.

Shavronne Wrappings was the reason low life builds were seriously nerfed (there was low life before that), so in the long run the more interesting parts of the build were gutted because GGG introduced a power unique. It always ends being toxic for the whole game (think about the old Kaom's Heart, Crown of Eyes, Atziri's Acuity, etc.).

[Strawman-mode engage] If said items/builds were too powerful, which is clearly subject to personal interpretation and opinion, it is far less toxic to nerf these than what you make of it. That aside: Too good for too cheap is never ever something that is in the interest of all involved. If you want to play a game in which different builds are not only playable, but "viable", you need to level the field.[Strawman-mode disengage]

Sure enough, the question is how the field is being levelled, and I'd rather want to see more builds become viable as opposed to nerfing viable builds, but in games like these certain skills and builds come and go, such is the way of things. Other than that, the game is not being balanced by rarity, and never was, as far as I am concerned. If you put in something good and make it rare, people will work towards it, carrots and sticks, remember?

People keep coming back for that 6 link, that Shav's, Voll's devotion, Skyforth's you name it. Hand over these things too fast, and characters get shelved on a day by day basis.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

john, the problem is not necessarily that the "Skull Cap" drops from a boss, or that it may be worthless to your particular build. It's that it's worthless to pretty much every build.

Your crusade against RNG has always been misguided, because PoE is a game of diverse build options, often beyond what GGG anticipates and therefore beyond what they can design for. Just with the passive tree alone, considering no other game elements for a moment, the amount of player responses is so massive that looking at it all would seem like chaos, like randomness. Randomness is a necessary part of GGG's response to that response, allowing the wiggle room necessary to ensure that the appropriate answers are possible, even if not necessarily likely. Unless you honestly expect them to foresee every single possible combination beforehand, which is just silly.

The only evil I see is when deliberate non-answers, filler, time-wasters, are deliberately put into the RNG table. When everyone wants 6 and 3 is an option, a roll of 3 is never the right answer. But when some players want blue and some want red, a random color is good RNG, even when it's not the color a specific player wants.

When the player who wants blue gets red, and the player who wants red gets blue... as I've said before, if RNGesus is the father of PoE, the Economy is its mother.

But I digress. Fusing RNG is indeed crap, you either get strictly better or waste currency. Exalt RNG is just fine; the item is pretty much always just better, although often in a wacky, unintended way. Except Thorns mod, that's shit too.

Then you get into situations where mods contradict themselves.

[Cobalt Jewel]
+xx% Increased Physical Damage with One-handed Weapons
+xx% Increased Attack Speed with Two-handed Weapons

Because some kind of logic filter is too hard to handle.
Or, my favorite, when mods roll dual stats for no fucking reason.

[Sage Wand]
+xx% Increased Physical Damage
+xx% Increased Spell Damage

Or even better

[Platinum Kris]
+xx% Increased Cast Speed
+xx% Increased Attack Speed

Boy, good thing my build that uses physical attacks and spells can now benefit from a single weapon. Thanks, GGG!
There's a point where RNG makes no sense. PoE crossed it a long time ago.

@Sure_K4y: what can I say, I think that build enablers shouldn't be that rare, but everything else can be (be powerful rares or uniques that are upgrades to other uniques). Nor a unique should make every other piece of gear obsolete by non meta reasons (think Ligthning coil).

If anything, there should be ways to randomize existing uniques and rares so they have a more variable range of values to not discourage long term playing (I think of things like corruptions, but applied to drops). Currently, you must grind enchantments or use vaal orbs rather than just grind to get that great item, destroying that feeling of "holy shit look that drop".

I'm ranting here. Feel free to criticize XD

it is "trolling" in a sense, Casval. only it's not :)
trolling aims to make you angry. PoE RNG aims to make you trade to avoid it as much as you possibly can, and prolongs your stay in the game at the same time.
the second part is a noble cause even a self-found-liking heretic like me understands - even if the means to it are very questionable in my opinion.

@Sure_K4y, I wasn't talking about cheap mechanics. that's a topic for a separate discussion.
I was talking about this implementation and (over)usage of RNG having no regard to a player's dedication or skill, and not even trying to provide an illusion of it.
get rekt fusing. get thorned exalting. get trolled with a white 1-socket Simple Robe in a level 75 map. get fucked no maps from the hardest fucking boss you ever beat, with the scariest damn anti-your-build map modifiers and monster spawns you ever foolishly stepped into... there is really no end to examples.

things being ungodly rare? yeah well some things are ungodly rare in Diablo too. and in Titan Quest. and in Torchlight. and in *insert coin here*.
but "ungodly rare" + "can drop anywhere at any time no matter what you did" = oh god no.

there should be a method to the madness.

and for the record, I think Daresso is a great boss. minus floating swords.

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NeroNoah wrote:

Honestly, I think that a more technical proposal would be needed for GGG to move their asses.

sorry my friend, but I doubt it.

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NeroNoah wrote:

@Sure_K4y: what can I say, I think that build enablers shouldn't be that rare, but everything else can be (be powerful rares or uniques that are upgrades to other uniques). Nor a unique should make every other piece of gear obsolete by non meta reasons (think Ligthning coil).

When talking Aegis or Shav's, those are rare for sure, on the other hand Voll's-prot drops like Wisdom scrolls (exaggerating, but not by much). As far as Coil goes, it is highly desireable for sure, but it also requires solid rare gear to carry it even in ele-weakness maps. The coil+ToH combo sure is rather cheap for really good, ToH being more expensive in Perandus atm from what I have seen...

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NeroNoah wrote:

If anything, there should be ways to randomize existing uniques and rares so they have a more variable range of values to not discourage long term playing (I think of things like corruptions, but applied to drops). Currently, you must grind enchantments or use vaal orbs rather than just grind to get that great item, destroying that feeling of "holy shit look that drop".

I'm ranting here. Feel free to criticize XD

I think getting mods on rares that you can only obtain by putting in currency is fine, like, "tier 0 mods", with +150 life, or +50-ish resists.

But when I look back to Talisman, where, in a tier 14/15 map, you were hoping for that tali to be rare to begin with, and have good rolls to top it all off, it makes me shudder. That was not exactly good in my book, but not unbearable, at a certain point I just picked them up and stashed them, hoping to get something good, once I "sacrificed" them.

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johnKeys wrote:

@Sure_K4y, I wasn't talking about cheap mechanics. that's a topic for a separate discussion.
I was talking about this implementation and (over)usage of RNG having no regard to a player's dedication or skill, and not even trying to provide an illusion of it.
get rekt fusing. get trolled with a white 1-socket Simple Robe in a level 75 map. get fucked no maps from the hardest fucking boss you ever beat, with the scariest damn anti-your-build map modifiers and monster spawns you ever foolishly stepped into... there is really no end to examples.

Lvl 75 map? That's like... What, tier 6/7? What do you expect out of these, seriously? For stuff like this, there's loot filters, they really have a positive impact on how you perceive your loot, believe me. ;-)

In all honesty, I do not think we will ever share the same opinion on loot, but for the sake of the argument: Intelligent loot reduces your odds of finding something for a different build you have in mind, as well as it reduces the odds of you finding things that you can trade with.

Imagine playing a 2h ice-crash marauder, with 50% intelligent loot. Will you ever see that Shav's, Bino's, Voltaxic, Rats nest, Void Battery, when you cripple your odds for these by 50%? I do not believe so.

EDIT: Furthermore I would not force a Lorica onto my Witch/Marauder/Templar/Shadow to increase the odds of finding a Shav's, for that matter.

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johnKeys wrote:

things being ungodly rare? yeah well some things are ungodly rare in Diablo too. and in Titan Quest. and in Torchlight. and in *insert coin here*.
but "ungodly rare" + "can drop anywhere at any time no matter what you did" = oh god no.

there should be a method to the madness.

and for the record, I think Daresso is a great boss. minus floating swords.

Mirrors and exalteds can drop anywhere, at any time, no matter what you killed, so there's that.

Daresso is OK, swords need to be telegraphed before they actually can hit you, period.