Thoughts from a game dev in the industry ...

i don't know why people keep trying to say what works for D3 would work for PoE.

In D3, Blizzard doesn't have to keep people playing. They only need to make them pay 60 bucks for the game and 40 bucks every expansion. What happens between expansions is not what makes them money. Making people come back and pay to see what's new and improved is what makes them money.

In PoE, if people get bored and quit after a few weeks, GGG makes nothing. Actually the only way PoE makes money is if people get hooked and keep playing. To act like GGG doesn't know this is stupid. They know they have to keep giving people a reason to play. If this is a niche game, then that's what they want it to be. Because the niche is what is making them money. Losing that niche to try to get a different type of player who will likely spend less on the game is the opposite of good business. It is what some rookie game developer might try before he figures out he can't compete with D3.

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鬼殺し wrote:

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AkuTenshiiZero wrote:

God damn, this community is like LoL 2.0

Not that I've ever interacted with the reputably noxious League of Legends community, but I'd believe it. And you have folk like me who watched it happen, who literally witnessed the community go from good to bad to execrable, from Closed Beta to Open to Now, occasionally trying to figure it out but mostly just accepting the natural progression of it all.

Very few of the people from then are still here now. Very, very few. Most of the volunteer moderators are gone. A lot of Diamonds and Eternals have pulled away, but more Golds and Silvers than that. Those that put in a substantial amount but quickly realised what they got was not what they felt they'd been promised. Somehow.

You can blame any number of factors, but I'd say the big one, the significant reason why the community has fallen, is because we were so full of hope and belief back then. Too full of hope and belief. That GGG could be Blizzard North Again, and that PoE was the solution to all the problems Diablo 3 aka Diablo By Committee brought to the ARPG table. Of course they couldn't and of course it wasn't. And each update that pulls PoE even further away from being that redemptive work (which it should never have needed to be, really), the community pulls further away from anything but getting the most out of what's left of the game they wanted to play. The game PoE was meant to be, whatever that might mean.

This doesn't include the silent majority because they're only part of the community in passive terms. When we talk about a 'bad community', we really mean the vocal factions. I still don't believe a bad community is indicative of a bad game or an unsuccessful one, merely a very divisive one that brings out passionate responses from all points on the spectrum. And in the end, it's better to have outspoken, passionate fans/players/customers than quiet, bored ones who'll just quit without a word.

Obviously a 'good' community is better than a 'bad', but any sort of community is better than none at all. I think that's pretty much the best anyone can hope for at this point.

I disagree, I have interacted with the LoL community. And the DotA and DotA 2 communities. And the Minecraft modding community. And a tonne of MMO communities renowned for their acidity. If you are grading online communities on a curve, and including all online communities in your assessment, then PoE has a great community. Sure global 1 has its share of wankers, as does the forums here, but for the most part it's a helpful community that gets stuff done. I don't think that it's gotten better or worse since the beta, it's just gotten bigger. As time goes on the rise coloured glasses get darker and darker, and as people leave their friends who stay lament the good old days, but for the most part it's the same game and the same type of people... Except now the game is bigger, and the people more numerous.

The forums and the chat aren't moderated the way they used to be. But think about it, could it be done like that today? There are too many players to police. What was a labor of love became hard labor. A job instead of a pastime. Volunteers have lives too. People move on. That's just life. We can't expect new people to pick up the torch and run with it like the volunteer moderators did, the torch is so damn heavy now that the job of carrying it has changed. Again, this isn't better or worse, just different.

We were more hopeful and willing to go along with GGG in the past, but where a lot of people see failure, I see success. Again the rise coloured glasses are getting a little too dark. Do you really want vanilla PoE again? Without all the bells and whistles? Would that make the community better? Of course not. Again, I honestly believe this game is getting better and better with every expansion. Yes, even this one with its "broken labyrinth". Like the rest of the game, it has issues. But I still have faith in GGG and trust them to continue their efforts to fix the problems. We were "never going to get an Australian server". Then we did. We were "never going to get desync fixed." Then we did. We were "never going to see improvements to trade." Then we did. The game is getting, not worse. Don't give up. Don't lose your faith. Be patient. Learn to bend around then game as it grows.

But you are absolutely right. It is much better to have passionate vocal fans than than silent ones. Just don't forget to include yourself in this number. I know you haven't given up on the game, or this community. Because you are still here. You've lost some passion for it, sure. But you still care enough to write grandiose posts about the general state of things on a near daily basis. You are desperate for this game to capture you again, like it did a couple of years ago. Stop waiting for it to happen. The game has grown. It's bigger. It's better. Look at it with fresh eyes again. Let it bend you instead of lamenting that you cannot bend it. Do this and I promise you'll rediscover what you think this game has lost.

And don't stress about the community. It's alive. It's organic. It is what it is and it couldn't be any other way.

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AkuTenshiiZero wrote:

You act as if johnKeys was against RNG entirely, when his point was that a good RNG system is not truly random. And this is true. It's not as if GGG is completely ignorant of this either, or do you actually think that Evasion is a true dice roll?

I believe johnKeys is against RNG entirely, but just as a socialist politician in the US will avoid referring to himself as socialist, john will say "some RNG is fine" and then never point to a single specific instance of RNG he actually believes is fine. I wouldn't mind being wrong on this one, though.

If RNGesus is PoE's father then the Economy is it's mother, acting as yang to the yin of pure randomness. I don't believe GGG will ever implement any form of droprate or crafting entropy (maps, uniques, sockets, whatever) because, from their point of view, they already have implemented a system to allow players to overcome luck spikes. And I happen to agree with them.

Still waiting on block entropy though.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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AkuTenshiiZero wrote:

You act as if johnKeys was against RNG entirely, when his point was that a good RNG system is not truly random. And this is true. It's not as if GGG is completely ignorant of this either, or do you actually think that Evasion is a true dice roll?

I believe johnKeys is against RNG entirely, but just as a socialist politician in the US will avoid referring to himself as socialist, john will say "some RNG is fine" and then never point to a single specific instance of RNG he actually believes is fine. I wouldn't mind being wrong on this one, though.

What would it take, to convince you otherwise?

My previous post has that exact "how 'good RNG' works" example you are looking for.
Though I admit it is a bit unfair to compare what PoE does to what an offline-based ARPG without an economy does.

The point is, it's all about the experience the player gets.
An RNG with similar variance to this one, can be masked with enough smoke and mirrors - roles distribution, content, elaborate systems, limiting/biasing when needed - to make it not feel like the player's sworn enemy.

PoE applies no such filtering, while at the same time using said unfiltered version pretty much everywhere.

So if I am a Socialist, I am a very selective kind of socialist.
One who likes Marx's interface, but hates the Soviet implementation.

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AkuTenshiiZero wrote:

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scale_e wrote:

And yet you still aren't...

Spoiler

countering my argument, merely continuing to take issue with a joke that was in spoiler tags in an attempt to separate it from my point.
You call that humor weak trolling? Fine. That's your opinion. If you want to boil it down that way, go for it. But you said "literally just" before that. A blatant attempt to further cover up the fact you are still not countering my initial point and merely continuing to use ad hominem, I assume, because you have nothing else. I would argue that that is what's wrong with most online communities, and that is those type of people that flood free-to-play communities.

Now, do you have any actual counter points to my original point? Or are you

...arguing for the sake of arguing?

Frankly, I don't care about your argument, nor was I ever trying to argue against it. I was calling you out on how much of an immature brat you're being, and the fact that nobody is going to give a damn about your arguments when you act like a child.

But to satisfy your little tantrum, I think your argument is weak. You're comparing PoE's RNG to soccer and chess. Not only are these things barely related at all, but both of them are the results of generations of alterations and refinement. Chess is over 1000 years old, for Christ's sake. Path of Exile is barely over 2 years old.

Secondly, nobody is arguing that RNG is inherently bad. You act as if johnKeys was against RNG entirely, when his point was that a good RNG system is not truly random. And this is true. It's not as if GGG is completely ignorant of this either, or do you actually think that Evasion is a true dice roll? It's an old trick in video games, preventing strings of extremely good or bad luck.

Finally, even if these guys are not actually game devs, I honestly don't care. Anyone with the curiosity and free time to spare can learn the ins-and-outs of game design theory easily enough. We live in a time when one guy can launch a wildly successful game from his apartment with no formal education or industry experience. On top of that, there's the old argument that one doesn't need to be Stanley Kubrick to critique a film, and there's no need to be a game developer to know what makes for a good game.

Conclusion? I disagree with you, and you're still a brat just looking for trouble. Satisfied?

Far from satisfied.

"Frankly, I don't care about your argument, nor was I ever trying to argue against it."
I accept this as your admission to arguing for the sake of arguing.

"act like a child." and "little tantrum"
Further evidence that you have nothing to offer beyond ad hominem and age-shaming.

"I think your argument is weak. You're comparing PoE's RNG to soccer and chess."
No I was not. I was using soccer and chess as an analogy. I was attempting to show how ridiculous it is to change something fundamental to a game. In this case, only using feet in soccer, and taking turns in chess, are fundamental parts of those games, in the same way that strict RNG is fundamental to PoE. At no point did I make a direct comparison to any RNG in either soccer or chess. That would be absurd. Because soccer and chess have no RNG. You know this damn well, and are clutching at straws. You further confound this by bringing up the ages of these games. Which has no relevance to my point, nor your counterpoint.
But, as you previously said, you don't care about my argument.

"You act as if johnKeys was against RNG entirely, when his point was that a good RNG system is not truly random"
Also incorrect. At no point did I say, or even infer, that I believed "johnKeys was against RNG entirely". I merely asked for clarification as to why he wanted pseudo-RNG crafting and drop rates in a game that is quite clearly based around true RNG.
But, again, rather than deal with my actual point, you choose to put words in my mouth and argue, quite poorly I might add, against those instead.

"It's not as if GGG is completely ignorant of this either, or do you actually think that Evasion is a true dice roll? It's an old trick in video games, preventing strings of extremely good or bad luck."
To be honest, I have no idea if PoE uses pseudo-RNG for Evasion and the like. I'd assume they do. But since I, at no point, ever made any comments about pseudo-RNG Evasion and the like, this point is completely irrelevant.
But, again, instead of getting into a day-long debate over hurt feels and semantic bullshit, we could have very easily had a nice conversation about pseudo-RNG elements in various games. For example, DotA 2, a game I quite enjoy, introduced pseudo-RNG elements last year (or the year before...?), quite successfully. We could have had a very cordial discussion. But instead, you chose to take issue with a joke. A joke. One I put in spoiler tags to separate it from the real issue. A sarcastic joke designed to highlight the absurdity of arguing from authority on a nigh-anonymous forum where anyone could make up any story about any fictional job they like. The joke was deliberately exaggerated. As George Carlin says, "Every joke has at least one good exaggeration." It is quite clear that you have either a) No concept of sarcastic humor at all, or b) No desire to see reason in this argument.

"Finally, even if these guys are not actually game devs, I honestly don't care. Anyone with the curiosity and free time to spare can learn the ins-and-outs of game design theory easily enough. We live in a time when one guy can launch a wildly successful game from his apartment with no formal education or industry experience. On top of that, there's the old argument that one doesn't need to be Stanley Kubrick to critique a film, and there's no need to be a game developer to know what makes for a good game."
I completely agree. I hope the OP, and johnkeys, take a lesson from those wise words. Which was the entire purpose of the joke you took so much offense to.

Conclusion, you misunderstood my original post, took offense, and like a good keyboard warrior, you went to defcon 1.
You didn't dial it back when I explained your mistake. In kind. And asked that you return to the topic at hand.

You continued to use ad hominem and age-shaming in your crusade against me. Which, as I've previously said, only further highlights your own lack of reason, logic and maturity.
You are fighting a pointless battle, from a non-existent position. You are a fool for doing so, and you have my sympathies.

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鬼殺し wrote:

Ah, I've clearly still got personal belief in GGG. *Clearly*. But personal belief doesn't change the overall sentiment that GGG has let people down. Most days I don't get that sentiment, but some days I do feel as though GGG remain ill-equipped to simultaneously be true to their vision AND please what they perceive as their main playerbase.

Speaking of belief: I didn't say we're as bad as other communities, I said I'd believe it. Because unlike you, I don't know. I've heard comparisons, and I've seen this community swirl down the shitter almost gleefully. But if you say we're still a far cry from the truly rancid communities of online gaming, I'm totally happy to amend my beliefs. Or would-be beliefs. I don't want to play the 'it could be worse' game, and feel it's best to judge the community not by its worst possible peers but by its former self. In that alone do I have an unfortunate reservoir of experience and can say without doubt that I know, and not just possibly believe, that the PoE community of now is far from the best PoE community I've known.

My basic opinion is the PoE community is fractured, fractious and frankly frakked.

People do feel let down by GGG, that's true, but I think a lot of that is because we've had it so good for so long. There really isn't anything like PoE out there at the moment, so any pitfall, no matter how small, must feel like a canyon. Based on how they've gone so far, I'd say GGG is the "best equipped" to meet their own expectations and the giant, ever-growing mob of players. Is "best equipped" still "ill-equipped"? I guess we'll find out. I find myself asking "Well, who could do it better?" and I always come up blank.

You're right though, we shouldn't be complacent and "play the 'it could be worse' game" as you say. What we should be doing is taking lessons from other communities. Ones who do things well. Dwarf Fortress and Kerbal Space Program have great communities. The Jagged Alliance modding community (despite the terrible recent titles in that franchise) is great despite being over 15 years old.

Fractured, sure. Fractious, sure. But frakked? Never. As Winston Churchill says "Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts."

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scale_e wrote:

Conclusion, you misunderstood my original post, took offense, and like a good keyboard warrior

And the wall of text u just posted to seek troubles doesn't make u a good keyboard warrior too maybe ? Man pls respect yourself a little at least xD.

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You continued to use ad hominem and age-shaming in your crusade against me.

And you didn't of course right jimmy ? Stop victimise and go on

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鬼殺し wrote:

Ah, I've clearly still got personal belief in GGG. *Clearly*. But personal belief doesn't change the overall sentiment that GGG has let people down. Most days I don't get that sentiment, but some days I do feel as though GGG remain ill-equipped to simultaneously be true to their vision AND please what they perceive as their main playerbase.

i'm pretty uncertain about my impression of their vision still correlating with their current vision.


take their shift of stance on griefing or scamming other players as example:

they let one support guy make a comment and leave that unsupported for days like it's a valid company stance on that matter: "yes, we ban people who scam others".

so how does that leave us guys who answer help requests? in nowhere land, really.

when i tell people they should watch their stuff themselves and think before they do something they point to gary_ggg's post and say: "but ggg bans scammers".

when i tell people that ggg cares for them and they should report scamming by mailing support@grindinggear.com i contribute towards the wave of useless user spam which ggg hasn't even the slightest chance to process and solve for more player's satisfaction.


i like the ggg support, they're nice, always responsive and helpful. and i don't think my last forum rage about "ggg opening pandoras box of support hell" has anything to do with my last support request didn't get processed for 3 days now while it was urgent.

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MisterER wrote:

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scale_e wrote:

Conclusion, you misunderstood my original post, took offense, and like a good keyboard warrior

And the wall of text u just posted to seek troubles doesn't make u a good keyboard warrior too maybe ? Man pls respect yourself a little at least xD.

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You continued to use ad hominem and age-shaming in your crusade against me.

And you didn't of course right jimmy ? Stop victimise and go on

When you're right, you're right. I'm no saint. And I freely admit that I enjoy arguing so much.

But me, use ad hominem? Pssh, never!

the only legit op suggestion is expanding map system.
all others come from being absolutely ignorant about game, item system and mechanics.