SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

My personal view is that the ideal would be to make the ascendancy points available elsewhere or to rework the lab. Which is the theme of this thread.

However, barring that solution, GGG needs to at least fix two things. First, provide some kind of checkpoint or way point in labyrinth so disconnects in lab are not so frustratingly punishing. Second, make completing endgame trials more predictable by increasing the chance of getting a trial that has not yet been completed.

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postrach_myszy wrote:

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EnjoyTheJourney wrote:

1. GGG put in many rewards associated with exploring lab, then makes you wait until the end of your run to collect those rewards.
2. If a lab run ends early, even for reasons that are not your fault, then you will not get any of the rewards you already earned on that run.

This is a design issue.

Not exactly true, except "design issue". In fact, whole lab idea is very poorly designed. But when it comes to rewards, there are "silver chests" and other chests, which could be quite profitable. So player can get "some" rewards, even if he is kicked out due to disconnection. That’s the reason of my tactic - grab as many goodies as possible, but after getting most important (3 keys and "another use of enchant device" I go straight to the finish, as soon as possible. Idea of "exploring" this thing or killing monsters there is additional newbtrap imho.

Time is essential there. Besides, PoE is trade simulator after all. So even if I would like to "explore lab" for more then 1 hour, it is just counterproductive, as I can't do any transactions while I'm in lab. So "lab exploration" is SSF toy:)

You're right that I overstated the losses from disconnects. I don't bother with the troves unless I essentially run over them along the way and I always skip silver chests. But, they do exist and they provide at least some return for time spent.

I essentially make a beeline straight to the final Izaro fight, ascend ASAP so I don't disconnect in the ascension room (that's happened more than once). If I happen across a darkshrine or two then I'll take them.

On the topic of the Labyrinth rewards being end-heavy:

Personally, as a SSF, even in trade leagues, the only content in the Labyrinth that is worth anything, is the Ascendancy points. That's the only thing of value I can expect to take out of there. Most drops are junk, and there are more fun places to get that stuff. The bonuses added to gloves/boots are nice, but not a reason to go through the slog that is the Labyrinth. The Helm enchants are too random to run the Labyrinth to expect to get something I can use.

In other words, they can add as much loot as they want to silver chests or even the monsters in general, and the only thing I'll go to the Labyrinth for are the ascendancy points and I'll never step foot in there again.

So, if I disconnect before getting those Ascendancy points (too many times to count), I walk away with nothing of value to me. (And that's going as fast as I can, just B-lining to Izaro/Izaro/Izaro/points (and maybe a darkshrine to see if it'll turn off traps in his room.)


As a game designer, perhaps the poor design choices irritate me more than others, but it turns my stomach thinking about it and the mindset that went through the devs' minds when they decided this was a "good thing"tm. So much so, that I haven't played for 2 full leagues, and only 1 character per league since the Labyrinth went in, just to see what the new game mechanics were like.

The way they introduced the expanded act system and how they merged older characters on standard into it also highly annoyed me. Combining all these factors, I've moved on to Warframe, Tera, Destiny2(only because a friend plays it and I help his clan get clan exp each week)... and only check back here to see if they come to their senses and add an alternative method of ascending that is more fun (or at least not tied to the Labyrinth as it is... I've given my acceptable alternatives plenty of times before)

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Zaludoz wrote:

As a game designer, perhaps the poor design choices irritate me more than others, but it turns my stomach thinking about it and the mindset that went through the devs' minds when they decided this was a "good thing"tm. So much so, that I haven't played for 2 full leagues, and only 1 character per league since the Labyrinth went in, just to see what the new game mechanics were like.

That's exactly it. Some of these game design principles are super rudimentary, and it boggles the mind that they were missed and/or the separate team responsible for designing the Labyrinth and its associated systems were not given sufficient oversight to spot the problems while still on the planning board.

I suspect that this is in part a symptom of feature creep and of a team which is growing too large too quickly not being paired with effective oversight. With Tencent in the driver's seat now, I wonder why you even bother to return on occasion. The chances of fundamental design problems being fixed are lower than they ever have been in this game's history.

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EnjoyTheJourney wrote:

gibbousmoon is pointing out the natural outcome from the conflicting effect of two design choices for the same part of the game.

1. GGG put in many rewards associated with exploring lab, then makes you wait until the end of your run to collect those rewards.
2. If a lab run ends early, even for reasons that are not your fault, then you will not get any of the rewards you already earned on that run.

This is a design issue.

You're not wrong.

But in fact this is merely a symptom of the greater conflict I want to point to: that between

1. incentivizing exploration and
2. disincentivizing exploration.

These are two VERY different masters to serve.

GGG tried to serve Master #1 more with their lab redesign (especially the additional of SOME randomized rewards). But a sanctioned online maphack coupled with golden keys from treasure chests quite clearly serves Master #2, because of the relationship between profit and time played.

I have always said and will continue to say that serving Master #2 leads to BAD design, because punishing exploration interferes with fun, and adding extrinsic rewards (additional loot) will not and can not ever compensate for the fun lost. This becomes particularly obvious over time, which is relevant to ARPGs because of their iterative (grindy) nature.



In short, I am saying that Labyrinth affordances are less fucked than they used to be, but they are still fucked. They will likely remain in that state unless and until GGG randomizes the Labyrinth completely, thus freeing them from serving the wrong master.

Revitalizing this thread because it's necessary. Now with Delve, which is excellent content that players need the most power to push, requiring the lab to finalize a character just detracts from that new content. The reality is except for LAB RUNNERS (which is what, 1% of the players or less?) people are sick of the lab (every single person I play with, even those who thought it was "OK" a year ago are now "yah, it's just tedious." or "I hate it.").

So players are now blocked from getting their final ascendancy points unless they can navigate crazy trap layouts in a super mario brothers fashion. This is NOT what the game is about, and EVERY bit of content released over the past year is opposite of this play style; and the recent release of Delve proves this even more.

Think about it. The lab was introduced years ago, and since then all the new PoE content has been about expanding the story, new bosses, going further, etc. The lab contradicts ALL of that. It's old, crappy, trap-based outdated content, and it needs to be removed as a requirement.

GGG is so busy looking forward, they are failing to look behind and remove the most hated feature of the game that has nothing to do with the future growth of PoE.

When my build can push delves just fine and now I'm stuck because today's Eternal lab layout is nearly impossible for my Delve toon to do (since it's not lab friendly), I'm now blocked from getting my final ascendancy because I can't navigate the insane traps and bullshit the Eternal lab requires. Yes, I could probably spend hours re-running it again and again and FINALLY get it (where's the fun in that?), but it's repetitive tedious and somewhat "luck" based progression that just locks the player into gameplay that has nothing to do with any of the other content. Additionally, people don't feel "I did it! Yay!" when they're done with the lab. They say "thank god that bullshit is over with..."

I hope GGG does something about this soon, because with each new release of great and fun content, the lab is constantly screwing players over with outdated garbage that people are simply sick of.

Labyrinth is one of the worst design choices in the game, being extremely disconnected from other gameplay and still being made mandatory.

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Mooginator wrote:

Think about it. The lab was introduced years ago, and since then all the new PoE content has been about expanding the story, new bosses, going further, etc. The lab contradicts ALL of that. It's old, crappy, trap-based outdated content, and it needs to be removed as a requirement.

You didn't think about it at all, did you ?
The lab gives new bosses, and pushes your character farther, half of what the game is about according to you.
good job contradicting yourself.

And there goes the ridiculously silly "it's outdated !"
Yah, no arguments, we got it, nothing new.
So outdated that the previous league had trap mechanics, of course, and that some of the most recent maps also do have trap mechanics.
Of course.


And as usual, the only thing that can be an actual "wall" to a character in the lab is Izaro, which is a good "wall" actually, it punishes glass canons and it's very good ( even though it can be cheezed of course ... ).
If the reason why you can't finish uber lab is just the traps ....
Then I guess it's the the usual, classic and so true : "git gud".

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Fruz wrote:

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Mooginator wrote:

Think about it. The lab was introduced years ago, and since then all the new PoE content has been about expanding the story, new bosses, going further, etc. The lab contradicts ALL of that. It's old, crappy, trap-based outdated content, and it needs to be removed as a requirement.

You didn't think about it at all, did you ?
The lab gives new bosses, and pushes your character farther, half of what the game is about according to you.
good job contradicting yourself.

And there goes the ridiculously silly "it's outdated !"
Yah, no arguments, we got it, nothing new.
So outdated that the previous league had trap mechanics, of course, and that some of the most recent maps also do have trap mechanics.
Of course.


And as usual, the only thing that can be an actual "wall" to a character in the lab is Izaro, which is a good "wall" actually, it punishes glass canons and it's very good ( even though it can be cheezed of course ... ).
If the reason why you can't finish uber lab is just the traps ....
Then I guess it's the the usual, classic and so true : "git gud".

You ignore the fact, once again, that Labyrinth is boring crap game play for many people. Your "git gud" argument is totally bogus and just an example of your penchant for being insulting. This "git gud" argument has been destroyed many times. Right there in Moonginator's post he specified clearly why he doesn't like the boring Labyrinth game play. "Git gud" has nothing to do with it. Some people just don't like the Labyrinth game play.

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Turtledove wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

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Mooginator wrote:

Think about it. The lab was introduced years ago, and since then all the new PoE content has been about expanding the story, new bosses, going further, etc. The lab contradicts ALL of that. It's old, crappy, trap-based outdated content, and it needs to be removed as a requirement.

You didn't think about it at all, did you ?
The lab gives new bosses, and pushes your character farther, half of what the game is about according to you.
good job contradicting yourself.

And there goes the ridiculously silly "it's outdated !"
Yah, no arguments, we got it, nothing new.
So outdated that the previous league had trap mechanics, of course, and that some of the most recent maps also do have trap mechanics.
Of course.


And as usual, the only thing that can be an actual "wall" to a character in the lab is Izaro, which is a good "wall" actually, it punishes glass canons and it's very good ( even though it can be cheezed of course ... ).
If the reason why you can't finish uber lab is just the traps ....
Then I guess it's the the usual, classic and so true : "git gud".

You ignore the fact, once again, that Labyrinth is boring crap game play for many people. Your "git gud" argument is totally bogus and just an example of your penchant for being insulting. This "git gud" argument has been destroyed many times. Right there in Moonginator's post he specified clearly why he doesn't like the boring Labyrinth game play. "Git gud" has nothing to do with it. Some people just don't like the Labyrinth game play.

Fruz is known white knight.

Lab (including map trials) is the best part of the game imo. Why mess with the best part? Helps keep a difference between regan and leech builds, as well as the life flask pantheon.

Lab, elder (not even shaper anymore) uber atziri, incursi double corrupt rooms, xoph/chaluya breech, and vaaling a solid unique, give the best gamble excitement of anything in the game. Of all those lab is the only one to reach cheap and easily.