SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

I can't believe this thread is still going :o

But I also still don't like the lab

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postrach_myszy wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

Let's do a little reality check here on his claim that he does a full clear in 15-21 minutes.

Looking at today's eternal lab ladder times the median time is 20 minutes. The times in this ladder are the fastest time for each person that has run the labyrinth. I suspect that times in the top half are heavy with lab runners doing multiple runs and so that time with the fastest time being the posted time is likely not their first run for many of them.

One potential caveat here is that we may be talking about different definitions of what full clear means. My definition would be opening almost all chests and clearing most all monsters. I would guess that it's not likely possible to do this in less than 20 minutes especially on a first run without "cheating" (using poelab).

Ok, I will clarify what "full run" means for me. My definition of "full" means - 3 keys before final fight and possibility to do additional enchantment, which can be obtained from darkshrine. So, if I get this from my first encountered darkshrine, I will chase other darkshrines only if they are on main path or if they are in same room with chest, possible containing key. Same thing with “silver chests”, which in most cases contains some junk.

When it comes to “kill all monsters in every room”, it is pure timewasting, unless you run char on lvl. 70-74 and you use it to gain experience faster. So to recapitulate, for me “full” means – 3 keys and 3 uses of enchantment device (twice enchanted prophecy), as this is one and only reason to even go to lab. Which I treat only as a source of currency, so there is no reason to stay there a second longer after getting all the potential "currency sources".

So with my lvl 91 juggernaut, with 80/150 (without and with flask) movement speed, slow by "lab runners" standards I can do such „full run“ within 15-20 minutes or within 7-10 minutes, if I go only for enchantments from „twice enchanted“ and don’t care about anything else.

"Full run" != "full clear." I would also say that "only if they are on main path or if they are in same room with chest" does not constitute anything resembling a full clear. Rather, it's a typical, "run the Labyrinth for maximum loot:time ratio" style of play, which is also a legitimate way to play the game, but not at all what I described.

Although I don't kill every monster (getting every room to /remaining 0 is not my idea of a good time), I do end up killing most of them, because I explore every room in the Labyrinth to see if there is a special treasure or darkshrine.

I'll iterate for clarity: I explore. The ability to do that, and be rewarded for it, is the only reason GGG's changes to the Labyrinth have finally made it fun for me.

Your method involves exploiting poelab, which, while probably the most popular way to run the Lab (for obvious reasons), is as I said is a style of gameplay I loathe. I prefer to explore, because I play games for the process and not the result.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

I'll iterate for clarity: I explore. The ability to do that, and be rewarded for it, is the only reason GGG's changes to the Labyrinth have finally made it fun for me.

Your method involves exploiting poelab, which, while probably the most popular way to run the Lab (for obvious reasons), is as I said is a style of gameplay I loathe. I prefer to explore, because I play games for the process and not the result.

So, if you play such awful thing like labyrinth "for process and not the result", then you have to face cruel reality like disconnections and other unpleasant things, which can happen, if you play online game and stay in some instance for too long. Besides, if instead of "full exploring" in your way you made some really fast character and "explore" all rooms without sensless killing, you would discover that after 3 passes, taking 15-20 minutes (or less) you remember layout of every single room (like, in which room darksrine, chest or key is) and you do not need to "explore" anything anymore, because you go straight to the goal in each room, without loathed "poelab" and being less "vulnerable" to disconnections :)

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postrach_myszy wrote:

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gibbousmoon wrote:

I'll iterate for clarity: I explore. The ability to do that, and be rewarded for it, is the only reason GGG's changes to the Labyrinth have finally made it fun for me.

Your method involves exploiting poelab, which, while probably the most popular way to run the Lab (for obvious reasons), is as I said is a style of gameplay I loathe. I prefer to explore, because I play games for the process and not the result.

So, if you play such awful thing like labyrinth "for process and not the result", then you have to face cruel reality like disconnections and other unpleasant things, which can happen, if you play online game and stay in some instance for too long. Besides, if instead of "full exploring" in your way you made some really fast character and "explore" all rooms without sensless killing, you would discover that after 3 passes, taking 15-20 minutes (or less) you remember layout of every single room (like, in which room darksrine, chest or key is) and you do not need to "explore" anything anymore, because you go straight to the goal in each room, without loathed "poelab" and being less "vulnerable" to disconnections :)

If I wanted to run the lab more than once in a single day, sure.

If I thought that memorizing the day's layout was more fun than exploring, you know, an actual labyrinth, sure.

Guess what? ;)

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gibbousmoon wrote:

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postrach_myszy wrote:

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gibbousmoon wrote:

I'll iterate for clarity: I explore. The ability to do that, and be rewarded for it, is the only reason GGG's changes to the Labyrinth have finally made it fun for me.

Your method involves exploiting poelab, which, while probably the most popular way to run the Lab (for obvious reasons), is as I said is a style of gameplay I loathe. I prefer to explore, because I play games for the process and not the result.

So, if you play such awful thing like labyrinth "for process and not the result", then you have to face cruel reality like disconnections and other unpleasant things, which can happen, if you play online game and stay in some instance for too long. Besides, if instead of "full exploring" in your way you made some really fast character and "explore" all rooms without sensless killing, you would discover that after 3 passes, taking 15-20 minutes (or less) you remember layout of every single room (like, in which room darksrine, chest or key is) and you do not need to "explore" anything anymore, because you go straight to the goal in each room, without loathed "poelab" and being less "vulnerable" to disconnections :)

If I wanted to run the lab more than once in a single day, sure.

If I thought that memorizing the day's layout was more fun than exploring, you know, an actual labyrinth, sure.

Guess what? ;)

As I mentioned there's a large number of silly people that think that they know the only right way to play the game and everyone else's way of playing the game is somehow wrong. These close minded people seem to forget that the point of the game is to have fun and not everyone has to have fun in the same way.

Of course their counter argument is going to be "I'm right which is proven by the fact that I'm better than you and you're wrong again which is proven by the fact that you are inferior to me." Sorry, that's not their counter argument. That's their only argument.

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Turtledove wrote:

As I mentioned there's a large number of silly people that think that they know the only right way to play the game and everyone else's way of playing the game is somehow wrong. These close minded people seem to forget that the point of the game is to have fun and not everyone has to have fun in the same way.

Of course their counter argument is going to be "I'm right which is proven by the fact that I'm better than you and you're wrong again which is proven by the fact that you are inferior to me." Sorry, that's not their counter argument. That's their only argument.

It is really funny situation, when front leader of the "anti-labyrinth" crusade suddenly begins to glorify “full runs” of his most hated location, at the same time condemning people, who are trying to do it as quickly and as efficiently as possible to leave labyrinth as soon as possible :)

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postrach_myszy wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

As I mentioned there's a large number of silly people that think that they know the only right way to play the game and everyone else's way of playing the game is somehow wrong. These close minded people seem to forget that the point of the game is to have fun and not everyone has to have fun in the same way.

Of course their counter argument is going to be "I'm right which is proven by the fact that I'm better than you and you're wrong again which is proven by the fact that you are inferior to me." Sorry, that's not their counter argument. That's their only argument.

It is really funny situation, when front leader of the "anti-labyrinth" crusade suddenly begins to glorify “full runs” of his most hated location, at the same time condemning people, who are trying to do it as quickly and as efficiently as possible to leave labyrinth as soon as possible :)

You are being illogical. I'm not glorifying full clears of lab. (Full runs is your term, IIRC.) Personally, I get all dark shrines but don't worry about anything else in lab. I generally do full clears of other areas in PoE, especially maps but not lab. I do use poelab but consider it "cheating" and not fun. I also use an Izaro guide. Which I consider "cheating" and not fun. Here the word "cheating" is not intended to mean any ethical judgement but is instead my own personal view of how I like to play games. That is I like to explore and learn the boss fights on my own. The lab is horrible and not fun and so I "cheat" in lab to minimize the bad experience.

In the past gibbousmoon has made the valid point that part of the reason that I dislike lab is that I "cheat" when I run lab. This is true. I think he considers it "cheating" also. He refuses to cheat though. I respect him for that. I think it is okay for him to play the game differently from me.

Gibbousmoon generally does full explores of lab. You jabbed at him with insults about him being so inferior to you because it takes him an hour to do a full explore of lab. I simply tried to point out that you were being close minded about how others might have fun in a different way from you. At the same time I tried to give you a face saving out by saying perhaps there was a misunderstanding on what you thought gibbousmoon was doing in his full explore of lab. Your 15-21 minute comparison to gibbousmmon's 1 hour was comparing apples and oranges. You didn't take the "out" I tried to gave you. Instead you choose to continue on being close minded about there being different ways of playing the game.

It is okay with me if gibbousmoon wants to run lab differently from me or from you. It's okay with me if you want to run lab differently from either one of us. You are the one that seems unable to comprehend that other people might have fun playing the game differently and that gibbousmoon and I might play the game differently from each other and that it all is okay. Or, it should be okay.

Ugh... such a wall :) I did not insulted or "punched" anyone. Issue is quite simple. Guy complains regarding disconnections, while at the same time claims that full lab run "in his way" takes more then 1 hour. In such case solution is simple. Run faster, be less vulnerable to disconnections. Which will happen, as it is online game and lab formula is “you are disconnected, you are out”.

And when it comes to “close minding”, well, for me labyrinth like junkyard, when some very rich guy, lets name him Chris Wilson, left some suitcases full of money. For poor people to find and bring them fun. So yes, I will visit this junkyard, but I will escape from there immediately after finding all the suitcases. So, if somebody feels some pleasure in “exploring” whole junkyard then I’m ok with it. But why complain “oh, pile of junk fell on my head”? Well, because it is junkyard, such things happens there:)

gibbousmoon is pointing out the natural outcome from the conflicting effect of two design choices for the same part of the game.

1. GGG put in many rewards associated with exploring lab, then makes you wait until the end of your run to collect those rewards.
2. If a lab run ends early, even for reasons that are not your fault, then you will not get any of the rewards you already earned on that run.

This is a design issue.

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EnjoyTheJourney wrote:

1. GGG put in many rewards associated with exploring lab, then makes you wait until the end of your run to collect those rewards.
2. If a lab run ends early, even for reasons that are not your fault, then you will not get any of the rewards you already earned on that run.

This is a design issue.

Not exactly true, except "design issue". In fact, whole lab idea is very poorly designed. But when it comes to rewards, there are "silver chests" and other chests, which could be quite profitable. So player can get "some" rewards, even if he is kicked out due to disconnection. That’s the reason of my tactic - grab as many goodies as possible, but after getting most important (3 keys and "another use of enchant device" I go straight to the finish, as soon as possible. Idea of "exploring" this thing or killing monsters there is additional newbtrap imho.

Time is essential there. Besides, PoE is trade simulator after all. So even if I would like to "explore lab" for more then 1 hour, it is just counterproductive, as I can't do any transactions while I'm in lab. So "lab exploration" is SSF toy:)