SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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Nishrek wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

Me neither, like the rest of the game, it follows that same principle : a carrot, on a stick.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence

Point missed, again.

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Fruz wrote:

To make it short, I was originally reacting to :
"I would make an educated guess, based of reading numerous PoE related forums, that the majority of those running the lab, do so, simply because they have to, to acquire the Ascendancy points. "

The majority of the content is essentialy being ran because people want the reward at the end.
Now, you do not enjoy the way to the reward, in a much more unpleasant way ( I guess ) than the rest of the game, fair enough.
But saying that the fact that people are running the lab because of the rewards, implying that it makes it different than the rest of the game ( otherwise, why would you bring that up ? ), is not true because the rest of the game already mostly follows the same "pattern".

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Fruz wrote:

Pretty much agree with persq, some here just keep being delusional .... I guess that's the only thing that they can hold onto.

Projecting again.

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Fruz wrote:

(and Nishrek, since he is completely missing the point too I guess)

I am going to make it as clear and simple as possible (and as I showed very explicitely, you fallaciously cut a sentence in half before quoting it, Im not even sure if you realize it at this point) :

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You were, splitting a sentence in half and answering both parts while ignoring the other is exactly that.

Spoiler

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Kellog wrote:

Suggesting my argument doesn't hold water because of my personal opinion

To make it even more easy to understand, I did say that your argument does not hold water BECAUSE you implied that the fact that it is the carrot WAS THE CAUSE.
get it ?
No more trouble understanding simple English ?

So, several pages ago you were complaining about my being 'fallacious' because I split a sentence in two! Here:

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And here is the original quote, with the bolded part :

what does not hold water however is saying "the lab is obviously bad, people go in there to get the AC!!!

So much bad faith it's mind blowing.
If you cannot understand basic causality principles, there is absolutely no meaning in trying to discuss with you, it's a dead end.

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I suspected that you would deny what you said, I didn't quote it because I was on my phone, here is what you said :

Whereas, what you're actually complaining about is, not the emboldened part of the sentence, being split off but the paragraph that preceded the sentence not being included.

By the way, I'm haven't denied anything.

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Kellog wrote:

Regardless, with the exception of a minority, who may actually have left because of the inclusion of the lab, I would make an educated guess, based of reading numerous PoE related forums, that the majority of those running the lab, do so, simply because they have to, to acquire the Ascendancy points.

Basically, you should have made this clear some posts ago.

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<=> the majority only run the lab because it's a carrot on a stick.
12 pages ago.

Now you're just putting words in my mouth. Lets look at the whole conversation again:

You said:

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Let's look at the facts :
Since the lab has been introcued, the game's player base has grown bigger.
We can end the story there I guess.

To which I replied:

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To suggest the addition of the lab is in some way responsible for any growth in the player base is questionable at best. More likely factors are the expansion and the exodus from Diablo.

Regardless, with the exception of a minority, who may actually have left because of the inclusion of the lab, I would make an educated guess, based of reading numerous PoE related forums, that the majority of those running the lab, do so, simply because they have to, to acquire the Ascendancy points.

The context is important here. Whether or not you meant it this way, your implication was that the game had grown because the because of the inclusion of labyrinth.

My response to that suggestion was that your assertion was wrong. Growth of the game is not a factor of the lab, in the same way the inclusion of the lad will not be the games downfall. However, the main reason the labyrinth exists is to acquire the Ascendency Points.

You decided that what I said was 'carrot and stick' and have been posting this, since the post I indicated earlier.

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You seemed to have issues with that, I'm perfectly fine with it however ( only I'm not a hypocrite, as an example I know that I would not systematically go to meet the deep dweller if there wasn't a reward at the end, not like some others here pretended, not you for this one).

I honestly have no idea what 'issue' you believe I have, apart from trying to understand whatever it is your saying. Moreover, I couldn't care less if killing Izaro an getting some Ascendency Points and other rewards is the same, in your mind, as killing TDoTD, The simple fact is, this thread is not about the rewards it's about how they're obtained. Continuing to harp on about carrots and sticks is completely meaningless.

Edit: Added clarification.

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Kellog wrote:

Whereas, what you're actually complaining about is, not the emboldened part of the sentence, being split off ...

Yes it is.

You didn't understand it maybe, that's not my problem however.

Sorry if I don't made huge and annoying to read posts like yours, I'm keeping things more readable and simple, it does not seem enough of course.


I haven't put any word in your mouth, in case you would not understand "<=>" denotes an equivalence.
I haven't implied that the lab was the cause of the growth of the game either, only that if the lab was as bad as what people pretend it is here, and that people hated it that much, the game would not be growing like this.
Simple.

I used the words "carrot" and "sticks" to simplify it, to make it easier for some to understand.
It does not seem enough though ...
Even though I have made it clear, it still isn't to you I guess heh.

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Kellog wrote:

I honestly have no idea what 'issue' you believe I have, apart from trying to understand whatever it is your saying. Moreover, I couldn't care less if killing Izaro an getting some Ascendency Points and other rewards is the same, in your mind, as killing TDoTD, The simple fact is, this thread is not about the rewards it's about how they're obtained. Continuing to harp on about carrots and sticks is completely meaningless.

Well, we don't really have an issue with it, you do. The point of all that carrot&stick talk, in case it wasn't clear enough so far, is that the game doesn't necessarily have to be fun all the way for everyone, that isn't the way it works. It would be ideal if it was so but it isn't a hard requirement as long as you have other elements that keep people in the game, I don't think it's even possible, honestly.

Yes but the contrast of the rewards being so unusual and sought after and the way to get them so obnoxious and alienating that it makes sense to, if the developers ever decide to improve their carrot and stick contents, let this be the first one to change and have the most attention focused on.

PoE deserves a better labyrinth.

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raics wrote:

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Kellog wrote:

I honestly have no idea what 'issue' you believe I have, apart from trying to understand whatever it is your saying. Moreover, I couldn't care less if killing Izaro an getting some Ascendency Points and other rewards is the same, in your mind, as killing TDoTD, The simple fact is, this thread is not about the rewards it's about how they're obtained. Continuing to harp on about carrots and sticks is completely meaningless.

Well, we don't really have an issue with it, you do.The point of all that carrot&stick talk, in case it wasn't clear enough so far, is that the game doesn't necessarily have to be fun all the way for everyone, that isn't the way it works. It would be ideal if it was so but it isn't a hard requirement as long as you have other elements that keep people in the game, I don't think it's even possible, honestly.

I never suggested the game should be 'fun' from start to finish, however, keep adding aspects of the game that are annoying and make some people despise playing, will not win many friends.

As I said before, we've done the 'carrot and stick' thing now, no need to keep repeating the thing ad-infinitum, it's in danger of becoming a meme. Moreover, as previously mentioned, I don't have a problem doing the lab, I don't like it in it's current form and I wish there we as alternative. That is what this thread is about.

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Fruz wrote:

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Kellog wrote:

Whereas, what you're actually complaining about is, not the emboldened part of the sentence, being split off ...

Yes it is.

Spoiler

[what does not hold water however is saying "the lab is obviously bad], [people go in there to get the AC!!!]

You didn't understand it maybe, that's not my problem however.

Actually, it is. If you want people to understand your point of view, you need to express yourself clearly.

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Sorry if I don't made huge and annoying to read posts like yours, I'm keeping things more readable and simple, it does not seem enough of course.

If you say something to me I'm obliged to answer. If that means explaining why something is a thing, then so be it.

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I haven't put any word in your mouth, in case you would not understand "<=>" denotes an equivalence.
I haven't implied that the lab was the cause of the growth of the game either, only that if the lab was as bad as what people pretend it is here, and that people hated it that much, the game would not be growing like this.
Simple.

But you did. In just the same way you claim I misunderstood your comment regarding the Labyrinth and game growth.

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I used the words "carrot" and "sticks" to simplify it, to make it easier for some to understand.
It does not seem enough though ...
Even though I have made it clear, it still isn't to you I guess heh.

From that comment, you would seem to suggest that everyone reading this thread, apart from you, is a bit dense and needs to have posts explained to them as if they were five!

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Pyrokar wrote:

Yes but the contrast of the rewards being so unusual and sought after and the way to get them so obnoxious and alienating that it makes sense to, if the developers ever decide to improve their carrot and stick contents, let this be the first one to change and the most attention focused on.

PoE deserves a better labyrinth.

Can't argue that, it has the room to be better and it's a high profile content, it would be a good place to start.

Rewards/carrots are important parts of this genre, but a reward/carrot will never make any content "better". Will it make it "worth your while"? Sure, but that's beside the point. That's where a lot of us are right now; the carrot is too big to ignore, so we "endure" this uninteresting content, over and over again. Increasing the rewards will never make content better itself.

And as I've written several times; for some of us, the journey itself is important. If some content is totally uninteresting to do, beside the carrot, it has failed - in my eyes. "Stop complaining, the Ascendancy points gives you great power" - yes, yes they do, but that doesn't change the fact that the journey through the lab is uninteresting, boring and tedious.

So, if they are hellbent on keeping the lab as the only way to get the points, which seems like the case, they need to focus on making the lab more "fun" and "interesting". And it looks like they are trying. That is a good thing.

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Phrazz wrote:

Rewards/carrots are important parts of this genre, but a reward/carrot will never make any content "better". Will it make it "worth your while"? Sure, but that's beside the point. That's where a lot of us are right now; the carrot is too big to ignore, so we "endure" this uninteresting content, over and over again. Increasing the rewards will never make content better itself.

i averaged 6-7 minutes per run in early legacy and average profit was somewhere between 20 and 30c per run depending on layout and goodies.
so say, 110c per hour is not an incentive to you? where do you do more in an interesting way?

and i dont mention points. Getting 40% more damage for free as last zerker acc is not worth 15 min of your time, but hours of shaped strand grind is?