SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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Pyrokar wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

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Pyrokar wrote:

So what if lab is a carrot on a stick? I don't get it. What is the conclusion?

PoE 3.0 apparently has some great improvements to labyrinth. The first two labs may be much nicer. Now I do have some concern about the third lab based on Moonginator's post in this thread. But I still think that the significant lab improvement in 3.0 may soothe some of the lab rage. While it may soothe the lab rage with some, people feeding off the lab rage may suffer a frenzy curse?

Frenzy: A violent agitation of the mind approaching madness; rage.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/frenzy

:)

I guess ths kinda explains it?

Although i disagree with the 3.0 changes, i can see how it makes it more sufferable. Let's hope that they have more changes in store for the future in order to make it something actually worthy of PoE.

I agree that it's not a full or the best solution. The part that I especially agree with is that labyrinth is not worthy to be in PoE.

And just to balance out the frenzy curse, I'm very hopeful that 3.0 will be worthy of my gaming time again. It would be wonderful to be able to reap the fruits of all our hard labors of letting GGG know that we love PoE but the labyrinth needs to be fixed! Final complete fix to be in 4.0 or earlier!!! :-)
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Saltygames wrote:

they do have the numbers, so one could ofc only speculate.

Maybe they see that many just do normal lab, or even fail it completely, quitting the game as a result. Aaand they are working on making uber lab more rewarding. So i'll guess we'll see how it pans out for them.

Personally I will still just do it for the ascendancy points, because the lab gameplay is atrocious, and not worth my time. I will just farm the good ol' maps for the lootz. Can only do so much to make a pile of manure smell nice ;)

In my thank you phase, thank you for your surveys. They were especially helpful in letting GGG know that the labyrinth needed to be fixed. As much (if not more so) for the discussion they generated.

And thank you to everyone that helped on both sides. It's now clear that GGG understands the labyrinth has issues that need to be addressed and that they are working to address them.

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Turtledove wrote:

It's now clear that GGG understands the labyrinth has issues that need to be addressed and that they are working to address them.

OK, but according to you its not being addressed because you still are doing the lab 3 or 4 times and you still have to not die to traps and do a multiple stage boss.

Nothing is changing about what you are complaining about, except making normal and cruel a little shorter, if you think your hard work has went to make this change happen so be it, but GGG has pretty much said they aren't doing anything else for 3.0


So you know what that means? Is that enough for you or are you still going to post about it daily and continue to not play the game?

^
He must be aware of it, yet he seems to blindly avoid the truth.

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raics wrote:

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Zaludoz wrote:

In this conversation, I'd say the Labyrinth is dead center for attacks against content that is only run for the reward, and not because it's the fun gameplay experienced in the rest of the game.

That's the main thing right there - "Is the idea of content that we run only for the rewards an issue at all in current PoE, as long as we run it?" Sadly, I don't think it is.

Me neither, like the rest of the game, it follows that same principle : a carrot, on a stick.

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Fruz wrote:

@Kellog (and Nishrek, since he is completely missing the point too I guess)

I am going to make it as clear and simple as possible (and as I showed very explicitely, you fallaciously cut a sentence in half before quoting it, Im not even sure if you realize it at this point) :

Do you actually understand what fallacious means? I split your original sentence across two lines, both parts of which I answered. I wasn't being deceptive, I wasn't hiding anything you said and I wasn't attempting to mislead anyone. If it makes you happier, here's your quote and my answer again:

You:

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what does not hold water however is saying "the lab is obviously bad, people go in there to get the AC!!!

Me:

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Suggesting my argument doesn't hold water because of my personal opinion, isn't much of a rebuttal. You apparently believe the lab is good, I do not, at least in it's current form.

You:

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people go in there to get the AC!!!

Me:

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They do

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Nothing changes.

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You said used the fact that the lab is a carrot on a stick to make it look bad, to try to "attack" it.
You are the one who started that.

I believe you're becoming confused about who said what to whom. The first time the 'carrot and stick issued was raised, by you, was in your post on 22 July:

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Most people do kill Nightmarish piety because they want to access to the next act.
Most people do liberate deshret because they want an extra skill point.
Those are also brilliant educated guesses, aren't they ?
Almost everything in this game is driven because of a carot on a stick.

Following that post I replied to the "carrot on a stick" comment with:

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That doesn't make the lab right.

In a later post you said:

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The carot on a stick is why people do stuff in the game, labyrinth included, that's all there is to it. Same for deshret, carrot + stick = people do stuff, not necessarily because they like it.

To which I replied:

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I don't imagine many familiar with arpg type games consider 'carrot and stick' type game play anything but natural. However, collecting a point on the way to Act end is a completely different prospect to specifically leaving the game to spend time running a side show. Especially when said excursion is tedious and not terribly enjoyable.

The aforementioned doesn't include the numerous times you've raised the 'carrot' argument with other posters.

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And as I, and Raics have been pointing out for pages :

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raics wrote:

If it is so, then it isn't all that different in principle to optional quests, it does differ in execution but its rewards also differ from everything you can otherwise earn so it makes sense.

The sole fact that the ascendancy points, and the lab are a carrot on a stick does not make it different from the rest of the game.
The end.

Let's see how many will miss the bolded word here ....

No one is going to miss your emphasis, however, I believe it's time to lay this argument to rest. The title of this thread is:

"SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]"

Which, as far as I can see, makes no mention about removing the labyrinth or removing the task/reward mechanism.

For the last ten pages or so, you've been banging on about carrots and sticks, which, as I noted in an earlier post, is a completely natural part of the arpg genre and something, I imagine, anyone playing has no issue with. What this thread is asking for is a change to the current regime, not the removal of the basic tenet of this style of game.

Working on the reasonable idea that less bad is better than more bad GGG has decided to significantly reduce the not fun parts of the labyrinth. At least that's my understanding of the 3.0 beta thread that GGG created. Labyrinth Changes in Beta Feedback

There's a few people that seem very upset that GGG has decided to try to make the labyrinth better in 3.0. These people have actually said in the past things like they would be very upset if GGG caved to the "crybabies" demands. I really hadn't appreciated how upset they would get! It seems to have triggered a Frenzy Curse. Perhaps, someone can help with an antidote or a break curse spell though?

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Turtledove wrote:

Working on the reasonable idea that less bad is better than more bad GGG has decided to significantly reduce the not fun parts of the labyrinth. At least that's my understanding of the 3.0 beta thread that GGG created. Labyrinth Changes in Beta Feedback

There's a few people that seem very upset that GGG has decided to try to make the labyrinth better in 3.0. These people have actually said in the past things like they would be very upset if GGG caved to the "crybabies" demands. I really hadn't appreciated how upset they would get! It seems to have triggered a Frenzy Curse. Perhaps, someone can help with an antidote or a break curse spell though?

Almost makes me think that you don't even care about the game anymore (you are not even playing it, yet you spend so much time trying to change it) and only want to prove your point by pretending that people actually got angry over it. A pro tip here: people were steamrolling Normal Lab anyways. They won't care much about it being shorter. Sure, there will be an individual or two who will get overly excited about this change, but they are VOCAL MINORITY.

Get it?

And the change has nothing to do with your 600+ long spam about how Lab is bad. It is simply aimed at new players who get lost in the Lab. If what you are saying was true, they would decrease Lab's length across the board, which is not the case.
In other words - they are making it easier for noobs. Feels like a reoccurring theme, actually.

Pretty much agree with persq, some here just keep being delusional .... I guess that's the only thing that they can hold onto.

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Kellog wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

@Kellog (and Nishrek, since he is completely missing the point too I guess)

I am going to make it as clear and simple as possible (and as I showed very explicitely, you fallaciously cut a sentence in half before quoting it, Im not even sure if you realize it at this point) :

Do you actually understand what fallacious means? I split your original sentence across two lines, both parts of which I answered. I wasn't being deceptive, I wasn't hiding anything you said and I wasn't attempting to mislead anyone.

You were, splitting a sentence in half and answering both parts while ignoring the other is exactly that.



I suspected that you would deny what you said, I didn't quote it because I was on my phone, here is what you said :

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Kellog wrote:

Regardless, with the exception of a minority, who may actually have left because of the inclusion of the lab, I would make an educated guess, based of reading numerous PoE related forums, that the majority of those running the lab, do so, simply because they have to, to acquire the Ascendancy points.

<=> the majority only run the lab because it's a carrot on a stick.
12 pages ago.

You seemed to have issues with that, I'm perfectly fine with it however ( only I'm not a hypocrite, as an example I know that I would not systematically go to meet the deep dweller if there wasn't a reward at the end, not like some others here pretended, not you for this one).

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Fruz wrote:

Me neither, like the rest of the game, it follows that same principle : a carrot, on a stick.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence

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goetzjam wrote:

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Pyrokar wrote:

But that would mean that people didn't wanna bother to repeat it, if they failed , when they did it at an appropriate level.

If it was fun to repeat then they wouldn't overlevel it and then attempt it.

So:
A) Lab wasn't fun for the silent majority
And
B) They had to change it in order to not lose the support of the silent majority; the lab haters.

Now your just making shit up.

They changed it because it was time to change it, just like it was time to change from 4 acts repeating to 10 total acts.


Perhaps its fine for the majority, but in order to appeal even slightly to the people in this thread they tossed you a bone and apparently thats not enough. Too bad, it will never be enough for people like you.

They changed it because it sucks and they do not have the heart to tell the poor developer he failed. Chances are they are friends and they fear for his sanity.

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Nishrek wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

Me neither, like the rest of the game, it follows that same principle : a carrot, on a stick.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence

Most content is fun and you get a cookie. Lab is more like fear factor. You eat live bees and get a free car if you do not vomit.