SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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Zalhan2 wrote:

you can't be right there are hundreds of posts by 3 people saying ggg will never change it and we shouldn't post in a feedback forum.

So you consider that a change? That's what you've been fighting for all this time? Sure, it worked just fine on Pohx, it was practically unbearable and now that it's three rooms plus three boss fights it's suddenly fine.

Seems like their usual triviality bribe to me, but I suppose that's what screaming 'hate it, don't want to do it' en masse gets you.

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So you hate the lab and you hate trading, what do you enjoy about the game then?

Giving them based on story progression or something you already have to do is literally the worst option. Period

It feels out of place? Maybe because its a separately designed piece of content that pairs a higher reward behind it? 1 shots in uber LUL, you mean if you don't play around the mechanics properly? Um breach domains sort of follow this hardcore mode mechanic, if you die in a breach domain chances are you aren't getting to the boss.

Thanks Goetzjam. Appreciate the trolling. Just giving my 2 cents and support of a feature I don't like.

The points raised about the lab being separated from Ascendency points is really all I care about. To frame it in context with other content, I do not have to do Atziri, Shaper, Council, or any other amount of content to complete a character unless I want to. I always liked the map system because I can chose to ignore layouts I didn't like. This concept of content selection is appealing and rewards the players who do chose to take it on with exclusive (and thus rare) drops. Kudos to those that like doing it. Don't try to lump breaches into this argument. They are completely optional and do not have the same consequences. I could run a breach map up to the boss and switch to a different character for the kill if I wanted. That does not apply to lab.

Lab IS required in this game. It is pretty hard to argue that ascendancy points are not your most powerful and to me they are the most exciting points as they are what really makes me want to play 2 or more variations of the same build.

If they separated lab from ascendancy points, I would no longer run it and no longer complain. It can just be optional content that people will run for profit like the rest of the selective areas of the game.

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raics wrote:

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Zalhan2 wrote:

you can't be right there are hundreds of posts by 3 people saying ggg will never change it and we shouldn't post in a feedback forum.

So you consider that a change? That's what you've been fighting for all this time? Sure, it worked just fine on Pohx, it was practically unbearable and now that it's three rooms plus three boss fights it's suddenly fine.

Seems like their usual triviality bribe to me, but I suppose that's what screaming 'hate it, don't want to do it' en masse gets you.

GGG has been making improvements to the horrible labyrinth since it was released. It appears to me that Zalhan2 was just making light of the argument put forth by the three trolls that lurk in the labyrinth threads that like to say that we're wasting our time giving feedback in the Feedback and Suggestions forum. Reducing the amount of bad content is, of course, a change and a change for the good, sometimes referred to as an improvement. (Sorry, I don't know what "Pohx" means so if that was relevant to my response then sorry again.)

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Turtledove wrote:

Sorry, I don't know what "Pohx" means so if that was relevant to my response then sorry again.

No worries, it's just some streamer that Regulator linked.

Anyway, this isn't an issue? When I said the easy way out for GGG is to keep it as is and trim some parts until the opposition melts you weren't happy. You've been pushing for replacing the lab with something good or reworking it into something better and the way they've started it can only melt into slush. Highly inconsequential slush you still have to dip your toes into because the less significance it has the less reason there is to do something worthwhile with it.

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raics wrote:

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Regulator wrote:

After Kripp's public disgust vs the lab reddit thread and twitch video

After Mathil's constant mockery of it in many videos one of which is this one (he uses the term shit very often for the lab fyi)

After projectPT direct questioning and criticism of it in the Q&A(4:20) with Chris where the latter tactfully ignored the question

Now comes Pohx with his newest videos(5:05-6:05) about it showing how really boring and alienating this content is.

Ok, watched it a bit and I have to ask, are those the right links you wanted to show? Kripp stopped playing long before we got the lab, PT was talking about PoE development in general terms (pretty much the same thing he quit the game for) and Pohx even said he hated it but 'doesn't mind it' with these new changes.
Mathil did use 'shit' a fair bit, though, he was quoting those that claim lab is long and challenging and also used it a few times in unrelated terms, like saying his gear is crap. I got the impression the point of his video is to demonstrate it's easier and faster than it looks rather than being antagonistic.

Yes they are all right, and only a small sample of their criticism. Kripp was invited by GGG to stream the alpha of the ascendancy update, he openly said that he didn't enjoy the content except for ascendancy options, and a bit later he claimed he was never gonna set his foot there again except for picking up a class, cause the content is boring and not what poe was appealing for in the first place. There are videos out there with his most recent characters (abyssal cry/poison/bladeflurry and his wife rania chaos firestorm - search that too if you are interested) in which both him and his wife use carries for every lab (even if they were level 80+ and already clearing maps easily) because the specific content is shit and not enjoyable even in the smallest amount to play.

Mathil too, bashes the lab way too often in his stream, but unless you are watching him actively you cant possibly know that (same applies with kripp in some scale). And this video imagine is of him speedrunning the lab with a character made for quick runs, and he still calls it shit content. Cause honestly it is.

You might believe that for projectPT but you are definately wrong, the question was for the ascendancy classes and the change in gameplay that is upsetting an "older demographic". See the video again and also hear some keywords like, "alienating", "majority feedback" and remember the minority meme announcement from Chris too and listen to Chris' answer showing that he too gets its a lab-related question. Also i know this cause i had a very briefly talk with him asking him explicitly to help promote the lab problems/issue cause i know via his videos that he found the content annoying/boring/frustrating/alienating.

Pohx might doenst mind it now, but still dont like it, like i said its just more sufferable cause its LESS SHITTY CONTENT. Feels lab man, fun and lab cant be in the same sentence etc, i dont know in which country you live (ill guess russia cause of cyrillic in your signature) but sentences like those are against the lab, being indifferent would mean he would just show the new changes not make comments like those.

And to take this a little further, being indifferent about something doenst mean you wont be happy or see it in a positive way if something about that was changed in a positive way. Thats the problem with the lab and why it hasnt been obliterated since the start, cause the majority of the people are indifferent, they just say "ok 1hour of shitty content and then back to my favourite activities", "lets grab those ascendancies and i wont set a foot there again anyway" and please dont try to deny it cause 2 friends of yours dont feel the same. And the change of feelings is even greater when you are in the opposite camp, even the smallest change/improvement makes you feel better that your cause has managed to add to something, even if you didnt fight at all. And that what i was trying to achieve earlier in this thread, try to motivate the neutral people to push some kind of change cause after all the only part of the economy that was gonna be affected was the carries and 99% of people couldnt care less for those.

And look at the changes they made again, less trials, less rooms, less traps, less trap dmg, less boss mechanics. And we have Chris like a month or so ago speaking about the lab and saying "we dont want to water down the content", how much more hypocrisy and contradiction? If that is not watering down your beloved content then what is? Making alternatives as we propose? With those changes normal and cruel lab (and in a lesser degree merciless) (fuck im still using the difficulty names, didnt Chris said they solved the arpg problem by removing them? guess he doesnt consider the lab arpg in nature too.) we could as well not have them at all, and while we are at it lets make the other two completly optional and side farming areas only as well, and put the ascendancies in a similar system like the pantheon were you kill bosses or complet acts and get the ascencion, like putting a person to spend an hour inside this puke is gonna make him like the game more, lets be serious, they just spent a lot of money and they try to find the most economical solution possible, which is :deletion and watering down of content, a band aid at best in this scenario, and really shows how sloppy and greedy GGG has become since the past few years but thats something not for here.

The only prohibitive reason that lab is still not completely optional is the cost, end of story. In case in the future the make some new kind of content they could with a snap of their fingers just put ascendancies there too, as an alternative or as the only way who knows, maybe they go FUCK LAB themselves too (and from what i know from alpha some are on that highway)

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Turtledove wrote:

So, I guess what you're saying here Regulator is that rather than choosing any of the creative ideas in the OP or coming up with their own idea GGG just made the labyrinth so short that there's not much left (except in merciless and end game?)? That is a relatively low implementation cost approach. I guess that could possibly work? When 3.0 comes out maybe I'll give PoE another try?

Im not expecting them to use any of the suggestion we as a community made even if some are really cost free and rather fitting, they could come with their own solid rework for all i care. And dont get me wrong i lust for changes/improvements/tweaks in the lab department and i was pleased to see that we get less shitty mandatory alienating platform gameplay, but its still shitty mandatory alienating platform gameplay isnt it? To give an example a few would laugh and find it funny, its like they serve us with 50gr of dung instead of 200 that was before :) Its still dung but at least its only a spoon, right? Yes about the economic aspect of those changes i talked above and i completely agree with you, deleting areas and tuning down dmg and removing mechanics and traps is surely the most cost effective move.

EDIT :

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raics wrote:

You've been pushing for replacing the lab with something good or reworking it into something better and the way they've started it can only melt into slush. Highly inconsequential slush you still have to dip your toes into because the less significance it has the less reason there is to do something worthwhile with it.

Correction : we are not trying to replace lab with anything, we want lab in the game, just not as it is, but rather as a farming side area like atziri/uber atziri, breachstones etc. Also a kind request for everyone to re-read the op from time to time incase they forget the purpose of the thread.

Unrelated to the quote, an honourable mention to Perq for changing his first page response from . He might still be against the cause or like things as they are but props to him for realizing and understanding what we try to do here and in the process also make some suggestions that are even included in the OP.

That's why i say re-read the OP, unless you offer carry services (and even then there is the ascendancy orb suggestion) there is literally not a single reason to reject every single suggestion, at least one (if not more) are bound to seem perfectly viable solution.

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raics wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

Sorry, I don't know what "Pohx" means so if that was relevant to my response then sorry again.

No worries, it's just some streamer that Regulator linked.

Anyway, this isn't an issue? When I said the easy way out for GGG is to keep it as is and trim some parts until the opposition melts you weren't happy. You've been pushing for replacing the lab with something good or reworking it into something better and the way they've started it can only melt into slush. Highly inconsequential slush you still have to dip your toes into because the less significance it has the less reason there is to do something worthwhile with it.

I haven't been in the 3.0 Beta program. So I can't really say what it would mean for me personally. But, I'm encouraged enough by the fixes that GGG has done that I'll give PoE a try when it comes out and see for myself.

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Thanks Goetzjam. Appreciate the trolling. Just giving my 2 cents and support of a feature I don't like.

its not trolling, what do you like about the game because you hate 2 of the most contended things GGG is strongly against changing to your way, who knows what else you dislike about the game.

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The points raised about the lab being separated from Ascendency points is really all I care about. To frame it in context with other content, I do not have to do Atziri, Shaper, Council, or any other amount of content to complete a character unless I want to.

GGG doesn't feel its necessary nor a wise design decision to seperate them, seeing as they have tied in lore and character development so much into it.

You are comparing content that gives similar power (but more) then skill points to challenges GGG designed for items. Not the same at all. The lab is designed as progression content, where you complete it to gain AC points, instead of skill points. Its no different in terms of character development as doing an act or whatever you want to compare it to in that regards.

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always liked the map system because I can chose to ignore layouts I didn't like.

Not before Atlas of Worlds you couldn't, at least not to this extent anyway.

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This concept of content selection is appealing and rewards the players who do chose to take it on with exclusive (and thus rare) drops. Kudos to those that like doing it. Don't try to lump breaches into this argument. They are completely optional and do not have the same consequences. I could run a breach map up to the boss and switch to a different character for the kill if I wanted. That does not apply to lab.

I never said anything about breaches, not sure why anyone would. The lab is more then just the drops though, its the content GGG designed as the challenge to get the power creep that is AC points. Thats why you do it after all, thats why everyone does it.

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Lab IS required in this game. It is pretty hard to argue that ascendancy points are not your most powerful and to me they are the most exciting points as they are what really makes me want to play 2 or more variations of the same build.

Just like doing acts is required. If GGG had skill points or like in beta for 3.0 they have pantheon points where you kill gods for their power you need to do them too.

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If they separated lab from ascendancy points, I would no longer run it and no longer complain. It can just be optional content that people will run for profit like the rest of the selective areas of the game.

[Removed by Support]you are asking for GGG to give the BEST REWARD OF THE LAB OUTSIDE OF IT. [Removed by Support], i would rather see GGG remove them completely from the game then cave into the casual cry that the points should be given for free, like you are suggesting.



In terms of Kripps video, the fact anyone even linked that is funny. Its from alpha or very early stages of the lab, before they started to address the problems that may not have been occurring internally but where once they opened up to different pc specs and shit. Find something more recent.

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because the specific content is shit and not enjoyable even in the smallest amount to play.

Because the content is all about the reward at the end. GGG doesn't give anyone any reason to enjoy anything other then that. This means it provokes a negative feeling of the content as a whole, even if you are getting a massive buff in player power after completing it.


I honestly dont give a fuck what any streamer thinks of the lab, because they play this game a lot and they don't want to do anything but shaped strands to 100 the 5th time or whatever.

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Correction : we are not trying to replace lab with anything, we want lab in the game, just not as it is, but rather as a farming side area like atziri/uber atziri, breachstones etc. Also a kind request for everyone to re-read the op from time to time incase they forget the purpose of the thread.

The lab not being the exclusive way to get AC points might as well not exists in the game. As it stands now normal, cruel and merciless equiv difficulty ones are only ran for their points.

The lab is more like act level progression content, then it is like optional drop content like breaches, atziri, ect. So its only logical that it remains the only way to get AC points now and forever.

I think if anything the changes they have made to the lab is a better indication that they are not going to separate the lab and AC points, as it will quench some of the complaints.

How come you guys don't give any feedback about how they butchered early game labs? How does that fit in with your lore and consistency theories?

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Pyrokar wrote:

How come you guys don't give any feedback about how they butchered early game labs? How does that fit in with your lore and consistency theories?

Because shortening it doesn't break the lore or consistency.


If anything about the changes are worth discussing is are they going to keep the ability to open labs for friends, without them needing to do the trials, mainly the map one.