SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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Pyrokar wrote:

1 mission was removed which made 1 master easier for builds which had no aoe skills

It wasn't just that, if I remember right. They also made guards tougher on missions where you can't kill guards and they made the exile tougher on missions where you can't kill the exile, like the box or low life mission. You don't need to pay nearly as much attention in his missions now, that's why I said they were piss easy when they could be fairly tricky previously.

I think Catarina's missions were also tweaked a bit. I don't think people were complaining much about the other missions and they don't really stand out from the usual arpg fare much. My point was that unacceptable may become acceptable if you make it easy enough and the lab isn't trivial to the point where its difficulty can't factor in the complaint even if you don't explicitly say so.

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raics wrote:

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Pyrokar wrote:

1 mission was removed which made 1 master easier for builds which had no aoe skills

It wasn't just that, if I remember right. They also made guards tougher on missions where you can't kill guards and they made the exile tougher on missions where you can't kill the exile, like the box or low life mission. You don't need to pay nearly as much attention in his missions now, that's why I said they were piss easy when they could be fairly tricky previously.

I think Catarina's missions were also tweaked a bit. I don't think people were complaining much about the other missions and they don't really stand out from the usual arpg fare much. My point was that unacceptable may become acceptable if you make it easy enough and the lab isn't trivial to the point where its difficulty can't factor in the complaint even if you don't explicitly say so.

I see. Well you should know that some master missions are hard to complete in high lvl maps and are anything but piss-easy. I don't see what you described as difficulty.

Btw they didn't make the guards harder to kill. They just removed the mission afaik.
And the other thing about the exile. It was impossible to complete for dot builds.
Did you read what i wrote a few pages back? You get so much damage now, these fixes had to be made in order to make the missions possible for good or high lvl players. It's really funny that you think it was about difficulty.

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raics wrote:

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Look, it doesn't make sense at all and is getting annoying.

The precise hand-to-eye coordination isn't by any means related to (a)RPGs and never was an important factor, wile it's the one and only requirement in the lab. People play aRPGs because they want to play aRPGs with their set of rules. But not platformers, nor bullet hell games. Those who want to play platformers play platformers and feel successful if they can prove they got faster reactions and better coodination than the other competitors. Because that's the skill in this genre.
People who like aRPGs are not here to compare their central and periferal nervous systems, along with the superiority of their small brain activity to the rest, and call this "SKILL".

What's so damn hard to get? The "challenge" lab provides is related to game genres which got nothing with what's considered "skill" in aRPGs. LAB IS A FUCKING FOREIGN OBJECT TO THIS GAME. It requires completely different set of "skills" - mostly biological and biochemical "advantages", which people use to practice and take joy of, but in completely different game genres.

Lab is shit.

Dung beetle says, "Lab is good shit, mmmm good."

I don't like lab.

Dung beetle says, "You are just not good at eating shit."

I don't like shit.

Dung beetle says, "It only takes 10 seconds to eat shit."

Maybe you can eat shit in 10 seconds but most people can't.

Dung beetle says, "That is irrelevant. You need to practice eating shit more. If you don't like eating shit then it must mean that you are not good at eating shit. Your problem is that you need to practice eating shit so that then you will be good at eating shit. When you are good at eating shit then you will like eating shit."

You are full of shit.

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Turtledove wrote:

Lab is shit.

Dung beetle says, "Lab is good shit, mmmm good."

I don't like lab.

Dung beetle says, "You are just not good at eating shit."

I don't like shit.

Dung beetle says, "It only takes 10 seconds to eat shit."

Maybe you can eat shit in 10 seconds but most people can't.

Dung beetle says, "That is irrelevant. You need to practice eating shit more. If you don't like eating shit then it must mean that you are not good at eating shit. Your problem is that you need to practice eating shit so that then you will be good at eating shit. When you are good at eating shit then you will like eating shit."

You are full of shit.

Cool story, bro.

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torturo wrote:

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raics wrote:

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The precise hand-to-eye coordination isn't by any means related to (a)RPGs and never was an important factor, wile it's the one and only requirement in the lab. People play aRPGs because they want to play aRPGs with their set of rules. But not platformers, nor bullet hell games. Those who want to play platformers play platformers and feel successful if they can prove they got faster reactions and better coodination than the other competitors. Because that's the skill in this genre.
People who like aRPGs are not here to compare their central and periferal nervous systems, along with the superiority of their small brain activity to the rest, and call this "SKILL".

What's so damn hard to get? The "challenge" lab provides is related to game genres which got nothing with what's considered "skill" in aRPGs. LAB IS A FUCKING FOREIGN OBJECT TO THIS GAME. It requires completely different set of "skills" - mostly biological and biochemical "advantages", which people use to practice and take joy of, but in completely different game genres.

Have you seen any of the major bosses developed in last year or more? It's fairly clear that devs are designing the game with exactly the 'different set of skills that has no place in an arpg' in mind.

I get where you're coming from, though, I prefer the way old PoE did some things, the oldschool way, but it hasn't been that game for a long time. The 'new' PoE means lab and bullet hell bosses.

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raics wrote:

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torturo wrote:

Besides Izaro, the "difficulty" of lab isn't related to hard challenging content the way aRPG players use to know it - with careful planning, build/gear adjustments, and knowledge what when and why. But mostly to hand-to-eye coordination and lag/spikes. That's all about its difficulty.

By the way, I don't agree with this at all. Careful positioning and hand-eye coordination should be very important in a game like this, you know which games lack that component? Traditional MMOs like WoW, you need careful planning, build/gear adjustments and watching the cooldown timers and bars, other than that, battles are fairly static.

It doesn't really pop at you, but PoE is designed with a ton of encounters where positioning and movement would potentially be very important. But it's that difficulty issue again, it isn't difficult at all to trivialize most mechanics so people don't even notice the way they were designed.

For instance, you know those greed essence monsters? You can avoid most of the balls with careful movement but it's easier to just pound on the monster and outleech it. I like to give monsters a sporting chance, myself, maybe the lab doesn't bother me because the whole game is one big lab.

I used to really like taking on MSLEs and LEBs in D2 in 1.09, back when they could be lethal. They were always a fun challenge, especially when playing naked characters.

For example, normal difficulty Rakanishu was always a fun fight for such builds because to punch him into submission while naked took careful attention to positioning. I remember teaching others how to do that when I was tutoring others about how to play D2 naked.

I don't see lab as presenting the same kind of challenge. At all. And it certainly isn't as enjoyable as fighting D2 MSLEs and LEBs while naked.

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Pyrokar wrote:

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I think Catarina's missions were also tweaked a bit. I don't think people were complaining much about the other missions and they don't really stand out from the usual arpg fare much. My point was that unacceptable may become acceptable if you make it easy enough and the lab isn't trivial to the point where its difficulty can't factor in the complaint even if you don't explicitly say so.

I see. Well you should know that some master missions are hard to complete in high lvl maps and are anything but piss-easy. I don't see what you described as difficulty.

I honestly almost always do masters mission ( nto vagan if it needs to change area tho ), even in red maps and .... I haven't noticed anything really difficult, in any of those, I don't think that I have ever dropped below 50% HP in haku missions and Im not hard rushing either.
If anything, missions where you change area are easier because they are not moded.

And they did make the guards harder to kill, which was good imho.

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Torturo wrote:

The precise hand-to-eye coordination isn't by any means related to (a)RPGs and never was an important factor, wile it's the one and only requirement in the lab. People play aRPGs because they want to play aRPGs with their set of rules. But not platformers, nor bullet hell games.

And none of this is actually relevant here ( even though I would kinda disagree ).
PoE is PoE, and that's all that matters.

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Turtledove wrote:

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Point missed (really).

Or could you quote me somebody that said "If you run the lab many times, hating it, you will eventually love it" ?
Please show me where someone said that, I dare you.
But you can't.

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raics wrote:

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Well if that's the trend and it's going to deepen, for me it means I'm out when it escalates.

Up to this point I can only complain, but won't force myself to like it.

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torturo wrote:

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raics wrote:

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Well if that's the trend and it's going to deepen, for me it means I'm out when it escalates.

Up to this point I can only complain, but won't force myself to like it.

Which is understandable.

But the first iterations of the game already were using such mechanics, where positioning matters :
- Vaaal smash
- Lunaris Piety, where one needed to hide behind the pillars, or just move from the lightning storm
- Brutus smash