SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

"

Fruz wrote:

Because for example, cleaning the house can be a tedious chore since it does usually take a significant amount of time, and you cannot do it whenever you want on top of it depending on where you are leaving.

Saying that the lab is annoying for some, fine, no problem with that, it's purely subjective.
Saying that it's boring and tedious, but it's absolutely not a difficulty problem is imho not competely true.

But it DOES take a significant amount of time, doing 14 trials and 4 labs. If you don't run the lab regularly and practicing it, it can take more than "10 minutes per lab" = 40 minutes - plus the amount of time all the 14 trials take, not to mention all the grind to find the uber lab trials.

That is starting to get pretty significant. I don't have THAT big of a house, and don't use much more than that cleaning it.

Again, we have to speak from the average users perspective here, not the lab specialists. No sane person would specialize in the lab, if they didn't like it. And you want people NOT liking the lab, to keep running it, several times, doing something they hate - to be able to run the god damn thing faster? Again, doing something A LOT of people hate - over and over again - is not good game design.

No - it would NOT hurt the game, if GGG introduced an ALTERNATIVE way of ascending, taking equal amount of time, but offered something different - for the unlucky people finding the lab boring, tedious and a pain in the ass.

"

kurosaki75 wrote:

Mate its more than annoying its disgusting .we hate that especially in hardcore. The feeling is so deeply registered in our heart that we re looking for build without ascend point .
I cant figure out platform mechanics in a hack&slash its ridiculous

This hack and slash has quite a few features that aren't quite what you'd call traditional, it's just that most of them aren't an issue in any way.

I suppose the HC argument is a good proof that difficulty is indeed a factor, that particular factor is much more important in HC.

"

Phrazz wrote:

No - it would NOT hurt the game, if GGG introduced an ALTERNATIVE way of ascending, taking equal amount of time, but offered something different - for the unlucky people finding the lab boring, tedious and a pain in the ass.

I think it's important to note that these alternative suggestions are mostly something you can do on the fly, which is part of that sidetracking thing I mentioned.

On the whole, I'm getting an impression that the lab is more of an unfortunate amalgamation of many smaller nitpicks rather than having some huge issue that can be taken care of easily.

"

Fruz wrote:

"

Pyrokar wrote:

Can you guys clarify what you are talking about? The only thing i remember was some Haku instances on high lvl maps with falling rocks that killed you almost instantly when they spawned. Currently Haku and Vagan missions on very high lvl maps are still very rippy... So apart from that bug(?) they didn't make it any easier.

Unless you associate difficulty with the backtracking you had to do when completing missions or how fast the monsters you had to escort were moving? That's not really difficulty lul.

"Keep all the guards alive" missions for example.
And I'm wondering if they haven't increased the spawn rate of "Kill the target keeping the hostage alive" and "Kill the target within the delay" ones to be honest.

Granted, by removing that mission which was hard to do for builds not running single target attacks (don't think there are any single target spells, maybe essence drain? but back then it didn't exist) has made vorici more bearable to do.

But if that's the only thing you are talking about then the masters missions in general are still hard and they haven't been made piss-easy at all.

Anyways, it's not like you lose anything for ignoring masters. The only master i really cared for, in the previous leagues, was Zana. Ignoring labyrinth leaves you with a grave disadvantage though.

Fruz you are getting ridiculous now.

Besides Izaro, the "difficulty" of lab isn't related to hard challenging content the way aRPG players use to know it - with careful planning, build/gear adjustments, and knowledge what when and why. But mostly to hand-to-eye coordination and lag/spikes. That's all about its difficulty.

"Git gut" arguments are a bloody stupid shit and irrelevant, you'll slip down the hole if you keep going this way.

Can you show me your lab rewards? Do you want me to show mine? ON HARDCORE. Though, I still find lab an awful concept and it got nothing to do with its "difficulty".

And if you can't prove to be better then what? To call you a noob and send you to git gut, Mr. Flawed Argument? To use it as a proof that it's shit no matter how people easily run it? Wait. It's not a bad idea. It's shit, it isn't challenging, and no matter this I'm good at it. A winning argument.
Unless you show me you got better rewards than me so we can speak out of bragging rights, I'll bash any of your statements. Does is sound fair?

"

Phrazz wrote:

"

Xavathos wrote:

If you run CI which has the weakness of no regen and no flasks, well that's your choice. But the trap doesn't discriminate between builds, the builds do. And that's the way it's meant to be played.

...

My choice? The BUILDS discriminate? Come on...

If the lab was fair, you shouldn't be better off choosing one main defense (CI) over another (life). The lab came after life and CI. It was designed with all builds existing. ALL builds "are supposed" to ascend. And you're telling me that's the lab is fair, no matter what build you choose?

The builds do... Ok...

All of my builds farmed uber lab. All of them with great ease, even CI and not a Soul Strike build. Patience is a virtue. Positioning is key, but hard? Come on...

Yes, it's fair. If you are having trouble, you may be doing something wrong, Dominus forbid.

Oh, in case you go there, I delete my characters and remake them each league.

"

Phrazz wrote:

But it DOES take a significant amount of time, doing 14 trials and 4 labs. If you don't run the lab regularly and practicing it, it can take more than "10 minutes per lab" = 40 minutes - plus the amount of time all the 14 trials take, not to mention all the grind to find the uber lab trials.
[...]
No - it would NOT hurt the game, if GGG introduced an ALTERNATIVE way of ascending, taking equal amount of time, but offered something different - for the unlucky people finding the lab boring, tedious and a pain in the ass.

It does if you are not GOOD ENOUGH AT IT.
In which case there is a l2p issue.

How many times do I have to explain it ? I clearly, explicity said that right before, and it's circling back ?

And it would hurt GGG to waste resources and money, and indirectly the game, anyway.

"

raics wrote:

I suppose the HC argument is a good proof that difficulty is indeed a factor, that particular factor is much more important in HC.

Pretty much.
But then, those players would instantly jump on the "because of game crash[...]" etc .... that used to be valid, basically.

"

Pyrokar wrote:

But if that's the only thing you are talking about then the masters missions in general are still hard and they haven't been made piss-easy at all.

Well it made the Vorici missions really easy (I don't remember having used piss-easy, but I could be wrong on that part though, don't quite remmember.)

"

Torturo wrote:

Besides Izaro, the "difficulty" of lab isn't related to hard challenging content the way aRPG players use to know it - with careful planning, build/gear adjustments, and knowledge what when and why. But mostly to hand-to-eye coordination and lag/spikes. That's all about its difficulty.

Do you honestly think I care if the difficulty is "the way aRPG players use to know it" according to your point of view ?
If you do, then let me tell you that I clearly do not, at all.
It's beside the point.

I farmed uber lab in BHC, I think I did 30+ runs or so.
My last high level alive HC char has uber ascended btw, and all of that has been done solo.
I didn't do it very fast the first times though, the rest was a bit better, though not lightning fast.

"

Torturo wrote:

And if you can't prove to be better then what? To call you a noob and send you to git gut

No.
But many here have been saying "Its' so boring and tedious, and it isn't even difficult, I have absolutely no problem with its difficulty at all!"
And you can be sure that this second part is of really bad faith from most.
That is just what I was pointing out.
That those people find the lab annoying, I have no troubles believing that.


There is no problem having difficulty with one piece of content or another though, that's just a game.

"

torturo wrote:

Besides Izaro, the "difficulty" of lab isn't related to hard challenging content the way aRPG players use to know it - with careful planning, build/gear adjustments, and knowledge what when and why. But mostly to hand-to-eye coordination and lag/spikes. That's all about its difficulty.

By the way, I don't agree with this at all. Careful positioning and hand-eye coordination should be very important in a game like this, you know which games lack that component? Traditional MMOs like WoW, you need careful planning, build/gear adjustments and watching the cooldown timers and bars, other than that, battles are fairly static.

It doesn't really pop at you, but PoE is designed with a ton of encounters where positioning and movement would potentially be very important. But it's that difficulty issue again, it isn't difficult at all to trivialize most mechanics so people don't even notice the way they were designed.

For instance, you know those greed essence monsters? You can avoid most of the balls with careful movement but it's easier to just pound on the monster and outleech it. I like to give monsters a sporting chance, myself, maybe the lab doesn't bother me because the whole game is one big lab.

"

raics wrote:

By the way, I don't agree with this at all. Careful positioning and hand-eye coordination should be very important in a game like this, you know which games lack that component? Traditional MMOs like WoW, you need careful planning, build/gear adjustments and watching the cooldown timers and bars, other than that, battles are fairly static.

I miss DAoC, where positioning and coordination really could matter, a lot.

"

raics wrote:

It doesn't really pop at you, but PoE is designed with a ton of encounters where positioning and movement would potentially be very important. But it's that difficulty issue again, it isn't difficult at all to trivialize most mechanics so people don't even notice the way they were designed.

Totally agree.

I wish that the game was less easy to outgear until the really endgame.

"

Fruz wrote:

"

Pyrokar wrote:

But if that's the only thing you are talking about then the masters missions in general are still hard and they haven't been made piss-easy at all.

Well it made the Vorici missions really easy (I don't remember having used piss-easy, but I could be wrong on that part though, don't quite remmember.)

No, raics did and you agreed, but you both make no sense at all.

1 mission was removed which made 1 master easier for builds which had no aoe skills on that particular mission and suddenly masters have been made piss easy and that's all what people wanted since there are no complaints about masters now?

Lol OK M8

You can bait the guards, which was the whole point.
You don't need a single target skill, brain using also works.

And having Tora Tp when you find the den (without previously meeting her) is pretty inconsistent by the way, I don't really like it.
Having the possibility to enter the den and look for her after instead would have make more sense.
That was just an example.