SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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j33bus wrote:

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gibbousmoon wrote:

If that is the case, then I think it is reasonable to conclude you haven't been paying attention, given the sheer number of negatively critical posts which are prefaced with some variation of "I have no problem with the Lab's difficulty" or "I can finish it no problem."

Let alone the number of posts debunking the oft-used strawman argument that Lab criticism comes primarily (or only) from players who have yet to "git gud," and that such criticism has a(n implicitly dishonest) goal of making the Labyrinth easier, not making it better.

In short, Lab hatred is not there "by design," evidenced by how often it is directed at flaws which have little or nothing to do with the amount of skill required to complete the content. I find it impossible to believe that GGG anticipated, let alone planned for, either the depth or the breadth of the negative reception.

I doubt they did either, especially since that lab is at least 95% the exact same content as the rest of the game, and the lab being 5% traps is a generous amount. Obviously the pseudo HC nature can't be the problem because as you said these people "can finish it no problem"

Nope, almost the whole thing is a steaming pile of dung. The only good thing in the labyrinth is the Izaro battle and the other boss, I forget his name. The rest of the monsters are boring white trash monsters that only serve to refresh flasks.

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The only good thing about map is the boss, I forget his name. The rest of the monsters are boring white trash monsters that only serve to refresh flasks.

isnt this EXACTLY what POE had become?

mobs that do no serve any purpose other than to refill ones flasks? boss that is so trivial that it can die 'in meanwhile' and at the end of it - overtuned pimple with 20x the HP pool and 10k auto-attacks..

the lab is EXACLTY what POE is atm. regardless of all the other arguments - this one always makes me laugh. guys, POE is exactly this - throngs of XP bubbles that refresh flasks and drop loot with a big pimple at the end..

the same exact thing

The lab isn't some den of evil. You can make currency from it independently from either merc or Uber Izaro. The enchants can be pretty useful as long as you don't expect to get a good helm enchant.

I think the primary issue is that people just don't like being forced into doing the lab because it gets really annoying. That I do agree with; you shouldn't be forced into doing the lab because it can get pretty painful even for those who do the lab regularly.

The secondary issues would be like the number of traps, poor visibility sometimes, no portal back in, etc and some of the suggestions on the first page do solve the majority of these problems.

To me the main focus of this thread is always that doing the lab is mandatory for each character to get Ascendancy points and this is what really needs to be changed first.

How to make the lab more attractive to players to me sounds like a large topic of its own aside from the suggestions related to Ascendancy points.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

If that is the case, then I think it is reasonable to conclude you haven't been paying attention, given the sheer number of negatively critical posts which are prefaced with some variation of "I have no problem with the Lab's difficulty" or "I can finish it no problem."

I see nothing unusual about that in particular, for each complaint there's a git good regardless of its validity.

When I said a game element is 'hated by design' it doesn't need to be hard, it can also be awkward or tedious on purpose just to burn more of your time. Trading is a very good example of that, hating it keeps us from trading too much.

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raics wrote:

So, you've been going there for a while, you like what they've got there so you've been buying some stuff to support them. Then, at some point, the management announces they've been investing in a brand new ride in the closed off section, it's a challenge ride and not for the faint of heart but riding it gives you a challenge medal, granting certain perks you can enjoy when visiting other rides.

Obviously, some of the people try out the new ride and don't like it, some even hate it for whatever reason, it's too scary, too uncomfortable or just not fun. Some of them stop coming to the park and some burn the collectibles they've bought over the years in protest, but most of them left their unfavorable impression in the official visitor notebook, as everyone is encouraged to do.

Among those, some kept coming to the park, either gritting it through the new ride for the perks or avoiding it altogether, but each day they visit the notebook without fail to leave the new comment for god knows which time, some would actually visit just for that. A few even tried compiling a notebook of their own, listing all the visitors with unfavorable comments as support to the initiative for rebuilding the new ride, replacing it with something else, giving out the challenge perks for free or granting a challenge medal for completing a normal ride. Then they would wave the notebook around in front of the management and other visitors, demanding attention and recognition of the problem despite the overall number of visits to the park increasing in the meantime.

There, that's the best I can do, there's no accurate real world equivalent of f2p games, there probably won't be until we can build theme parks with unlimited capacity. Still, it should still give you another perspective on the whole situation, maybe even a new appreciation for decent free to play games.

Hahaha, good one there.
The bolded part is this situation really shows a pretty childish behaviour to be honest.

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Turtledove wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

What ? You guys are not just giving feedback, you are heavily insisting, insulting GGG and many other posters, as is GGG is your mom and dad and if your life was depending on it ...




This is why your analogy is completely meaningless, no one is serving you anything.
GGG produced a game, you are free to play, give your feedback, leave.
But you are not entitled to anything, literally.
You are the one insisting here, you are the one desperate.

We're giving feedback. Sorry you don't like it but guess what? That's not going to stop us from giving our feedback. Too bad you're so desperate though in thinking that GGG is so fucking stupid that you have to protect them from our feedback.

You are aware that in the same very message that you quoted, there is :

You guys are not just giving feedback, you are heavily insisting, insulting GGG and many other posters, as is GGG is your mom and dad and if your life was depending on it ....
you read that part, right ?
I'm not desperate, GGG does not care much about your crusade and has been showing it since the beginning basically.
The normal lab has been shortened and trials have been adapted to the new acts, and that's basically it.

You are desperate, don't try to hide it, it's too obvious.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

If that is the case, then I think it is reasonable to conclude you haven't been paying attention, given the sheer number of negatively critical posts which are prefaced with some variation of "I have no problem with the Lab's difficulty" or "I can finish it no problem."

You seem to be a really positive person, really.
I don't believe everything that I read in the forums here, and frustrating ( or raging, for some at least ) players don't seem to show enough good faith to be completely believed, in my opinion.
So yeah, many say "I have no problem with the lab's difficulty", but that is really to be taken with a good grain of salt imho.
Would "no problem but it takes me 30+ minues because I am stopping in front of everytrap" is actually "no problem" for example ? I do not think so.

I am not saying that all lab haters are evil liers, not at all.
Just that those things really need to be taken with a grain of salt.

But as Raics said, it isn't all about difficulty ( even though it's runnable in less than 10 mins for quick/good runners, which means that it isn't tedious in this case => for good/quick runners, people that really have no difficulty with the lab, there is nothing tedious about it ).
Now those 10 mins can become 15 on bad hardware I guess, or more.
But anyway, 15~20 mins for a run ( with good hardware : moderately quick player, or one that takes his time / takes silver keys, so not just for ascendancy in that second case ), is something that can hardly be considered tedious given the lifespan of a character in PoE usually.
Now, disconnections are a bit of a different issue ...

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Zalhan2 wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

So everything that are not your expectations are irrealistic I guess heh ?

And everything ( even perfectly relevant things, that Raics pointed out ) that is not convenient to you is instantly dissmised and classified as 'irrelevant' ?

lol, your expectations are really off, but you are still doing the same thing, kind of predictable.



And if you think that the whole design, impact-measuring process + testing involved in creating a divination card is only 90 minutes, you're wayyy off, completely mistaking.



Making mtx to help the cost ? Do you even understand how stupid that is ?
If they can make nex mtx to get some money, they will spend it in something that deem useful, they don't need some silly excuse @"we need money to stop the crying of the lab-hating minority in the forums" to make Mtx ....

WHo cares what something costs the game sucks for many of us in its current incarnation. Its not our job to fix it. It's not our job to manage someone else's budget. Just fix the damn thing.

Its like someone took a dump in your house and is trying to explain why he felt the need to do it. Clean the thing up. I want my living room back that you turned into a bathroom.

Don't you get it by now? It is not YOUR living room. How many times...

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Zalhan2 wrote:

So movie critics should stop reviewing stuff? Newspapers should stop analyzing what the government does and how it affects us for good or bad?

In your world GGG would never ask what features we like. Your stance is well not useful to anyone to be honest.

It's like if you served poison for breakfast and when people pointed out the eggs are bad, you talk about how much effort went into making it and that you paid for it and we don't have to eat it.

We are just like dude I am trying to just point out you served bad eggs.

Your analogy is flawed.

In your example, the eggs are either bad or they are not. It's a fact.
The Lab being bad is an opinion. There's a huge difference.

A better analogy, following your eggcellent example, would be to say that you don't like salt on your eggs when you eat them, while we do.

Does that mean you can't complain? Of course not. Complain all you like. You can tell whoever made you the egg not to put salt on it next time. But if they decide that's just how they serve their food on their menu, that's too bad for you. You'd be better off eating somewhere else.

Unless I'm mistaken, the game still isn't called Path of Zalhan, is it?

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sidtherat wrote:

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The only good thing about map is the boss, I forget his name. The rest of the monsters are boring white trash monsters that only serve to refresh flasks.

isnt this EXACTLY what POE had become?

mobs that do no serve any purpose other than to refill ones flasks? boss that is so trivial that it can die 'in meanwhile' and at the end of it - overtuned pimple with 20x the HP pool and 10k auto-attacks..

the lab is EXACLTY what POE is atm. regardless of all the other arguments - this one always makes me laugh. guys, POE is exactly this - throngs of XP bubbles that refresh flasks and drop loot with a big pimple at the end..

the same exact thing

No, it is not the exact same thing from my point of view. In a regular map there is the excitement that frequently blue and yellow monsters are mixed in. Plus in a regular map you do not have the extra boring poorly executed platformer-jump-here-run-there game play.

NOT the same exact thing

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Fruz wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

What ? You guys are not just giving feedback, you are heavily insisting, insulting GGG and many other posters, as is GGG is your mom and dad and if your life was depending on it ...




This is why your analogy is completely meaningless, no one is serving you anything.
GGG produced a game, you are free to play, give your feedback, leave.
But you are not entitled to anything, literally.
You are the one insisting here, you are the one desperate.

We're giving feedback. Sorry you don't like it but guess what? That's not going to stop us from giving our feedback. Too bad you're so desperate though in thinking that GGG is so fucking stupid that you have to protect them from our feedback.

You are aware that in the same very message that you quoted, there is :

You guys are not just giving feedback, you are heavily insisting, insulting GGG and many other posters, as is GGG is your mom and dad and if your life was depending on it ....
you read that part, right ?
I'm not desperate, GGG does not care much about your crusade and has been showing it since the beginning basically.
The normal lab has been shortened and trials have been adapted to the new acts, and that's basically it.

You are desperate, don't try to hide it, it's too obvious.

I'm having fun playing D3. True I would like PoE to be made fun again but I'm not desperate. It really upsets you that some people don't adore the horrible piece of crap called the labyrinth. You're the desperate fellow that thinks GGG is so brain-dead stupid that they need the Fruz to come here and save them from feedback and suggestions in the Feedback and Suggestions forum.

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Turtledove wrote:

I'm having fun playing D3. True I would like PoE to be made fun again but I'm not desperate. It really upsets you that some people don't adore the horrible piece of crap called the labyrinth. You're the desperate fellow that thinks GGG is so brain-dead stupid that they need the Fruz to come here and save them from feedback and suggestions in the Feedback and Suggestions forum.

He's not defending GGG at all. He doesn't speak in the name of anyone other than himself.

He's defending (a part of) the game he adores from those who would see it casualized for their own selfish reasons.

And before you say it, we're not being selfish when we just want the creators to do their thing, their own way.

We are not making demands, we are not making threats. We just want Path of Exile to be Path of Exile, the gem of a game that it has been since alpha and hopefully will be for years to come. There's no reason for you to insult or shun any of us for what we are doing.

You have been allowed to give your feedback and make your suggestions, because you disagreed with the direction of a piece of content. Let us do the same now, would you?

Cheers, mate.

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Xavathos wrote:

He's not defending GGG at all. He doesn't speak in the name of anyone other than himself.

He's defending (a part of) the game he adores from those who would see it casualized for their own selfish reasons.

Thank you.

"Adore" is a bit of a strong word here though, I enjoy it, as most of the rest of the game.
I am just pointing out the flaws, fallacies and silliness of the lab-hating crusade here, basically.
Turtle missunderstood here I think.