SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

"

Xavathos wrote:

"

Turtledove wrote:

I'm having fun playing D3. True I would like PoE to be made fun again but I'm not desperate. It really upsets you that some people don't adore the horrible piece of crap called the labyrinth. You're the desperate fellow that thinks GGG is so brain-dead stupid that they need the Fruz to come here and save them from feedback and suggestions in the Feedback and Suggestions forum.

He's not defending GGG at all. He doesn't speak in the name of anyone other than himself.

He's defending (a part of) the game he adores from those who would see it casualized for their own selfish reasons.

And before you say it, we're not being selfish when we just want the creators to do their thing, their own way.

We are not making demands, we are not making threats. We just want Path of Exile to be Path of Exile, the gem of a game that it has been since alpha and hopefully will be for years to come. There's no reason for you to insult or shun any of us for what we are doing.

You have been allowed to give your feedback and make your suggestions, because you disagreed with the direction of a piece of content. Let us do the same now, would you?

Cheers, mate.

We agree we both want Path of Exile to be Path of Exile. I just think that the labyrinth is not kill-monsters-get-loot Path of Exile game play. It is instead a mediocre to very poor implementation of a platformer-jump-here-run-there game.

"

Turtledove wrote:

"

Xavathos wrote:

"

Turtledove wrote:

I'm having fun playing D3. True I would like PoE to be made fun again but I'm not desperate. It really upsets you that some people don't adore the horrible piece of crap called the labyrinth. You're the desperate fellow that thinks GGG is so brain-dead stupid that they need the Fruz to come here and save them from feedback and suggestions in the Feedback and Suggestions forum.

He's not defending GGG at all. He doesn't speak in the name of anyone other than himself.

He's defending (a part of) the game he adores from those who would see it casualized for their own selfish reasons.

And before you say it, we're not being selfish when we just want the creators to do their thing, their own way.

We are not making demands, we are not making threats. We just want Path of Exile to be Path of Exile, the gem of a game that it has been since alpha and hopefully will be for years to come. There's no reason for you to insult or shun any of us for what we are doing.

You have been allowed to give your feedback and make your suggestions, because you disagreed with the direction of a piece of content. Let us do the same now, would you?

Cheers, mate.

We agree we both want Path of Exile to be Path of Exile. I just think that the labyrinth is not kill-monsters-get-loot Path of Exile game play. It is instead a mediocre to very poor implementation of a platformer-jump-here-run-there game.

And I respectfully disagree. It's different and I understand that for some it can be too different, but I don't think it's bad design.

"

Severance2hBlade wrote:

We all one way or another have played enough online\offline games to observe the pattern of a coming big content\expansion not being delivered without flaws, minor or major. If your side honestly feels that the Lab doesn't fall under this category (the one with the major flaws) then i doubt there will ever be a common ground with the other side.

Sure there is, I've seen barely anyone claiming that lab is without flaws, we agree just fine that it's flawed. I just don't think the flaws are serious enough to warrant replacing it with something else, significantly altering it or allowing us to skip it, I'd rather see them spend time and money on something else.

It's a gray area for most of the playerbase, very few are gushing over trials for instance and we can also usually agree that Izzy is one of the better fights in the game. I just see more good than bad and you see more bad than good, that's about it.

Even before lab was implemented, it was obvious from the teasers that the conceptual existence of this platformer/arcade content in PoE is highly debatable. The reality proved it.
The problem lays mostly within the labyrinth concept, its nature. The actual implementation aside - though it appeared to be poorly executed as well, but it's not that important.

Lab is a concept which belongs to games much much different than aRPGs. Too distinct from the typical PoE audience. If it was more of a rogue dungeon, rather than a platformer, I'm sure it would be treated in a different way.

Definitely there are players who like lab (nothing wrong), but it appeared they are the actual minority, to the contrary of what Mr. Wilson stated. Forget about polls, just take a look at the "lab changes" thread in the development manifesto - that's the actual poll.

What I really don't understand is why there weren't any deep, significant reworks, while it's obvious there's a problem. Arrogance? Pride? Ignorance? Would be good to know.

omg, this is still going on... well, im following it, but... nevermind.

just wanted to drop in and say: raics, i love you :D (brilliant analogy ;)

but then again...

"

Turtledove wrote:

No, it is not the exact same thing from my point of view. In a regular map there is the excitement that frequently blue and yellow monsters are mixed in. Plus in a regular map you do not have the extra boring poorly executed platformer-jump-here-run-there game play.

NOT the same exact thing

again your demonstrating that you have no clue what your talking about or spreading false information intentionally. ther ARE blue packs and rare mobs in lab. heck, there are even shrines, strongboxes, exiles.

regarding your often criticised "puzzle"-gameplay: can you give me an example for one "puzzle" that is mandatory for proceeding through lab? can you? and sorry, if pulling a trigger to open a door (even if its to open a door where the next trigger waits) is a mentally challenging "puzzle" for you, then i think noone can help you...

oh, and regarding build-dependancy: ive done labs (including uber) with pure life builds, evasion/life, lowlife, ci... all doable. just because some builds have it easier doesnt mean that the others cant do it.

and last: as others have mentioned, this isnt OUR game. The game and its contents (including lab) are the vision of chris wilson and his gang. so the question how anyones gaming-experience would suffer if lab gets removed/made optional/whatever is pointless. Ask yourself how the developers would feel if you made ascendancies free or easier achievable (nothings for free in poe btw). I dont want to search for it, but in a q/a with chris he was asked what has changed most from initial idea to implementation. he said the lootallocation which was initially planned to be FFA for all, and got changed because of the bitter complaints. and then he says something like "i still feel something was lost that day". imagine what the removal of lab/easier ascendancies would mean for him...


you have offered your feedback and suggestions. it doesnt change (much) with 3.0. so just stop it and move on to another game or bear with it...

"

torturo wrote:

Even before lab was implemented, it was obvious from the teasers that the conceptual existence of this platformer/arcade content in PoE is highly debatable. The reality proved it.
The problem lays mostly within the labyrinth concept, its nature. The actual implementation aside - though it appeared to be poorly executed as well, but it's not that important.

Lab is a concept which belongs to games much much different than aRPGs. Too distinct from the typical PoE audience. If it was more of a rogue dungeon, rather than a platformer, I'm sure it would be treated in a different way.

Definitely there are players who like lab (nothing wrong), but it appeared they are the actual minority, to the contrary of what Mr. Wilson stated. Forget about polls, just take a look at the "lab changes" thread in the development manifesto - that's the actual poll.

What I really don't understand is why there weren't any deep, significant reworks, while it's obvious there's a problem. Arrogance? Pride? Ignorance? Would be good to know.

It could be that you're wrong about us being the minority. Remember, by far the majority of the thousands upon thousands of players do not read or post on forums at all.

It's safe to assume more often than not, most people who do read forums, do so because they are having an issue and look for solutions. Not all about lab of course, but that's generally the case.

People who are content and happily playing aren't on forums usually. Therefor, the threads being filled with lab hate don't actually indicate much other than exactly what you see.

A real poll in-game is one of the only fair options of assessing whether or not change is needed. But GGG has never done that before, and I doubt they would now. They can analyse their own data and act accordingly, without our input.

"

Xavathos wrote:

It could be that you're wrong about us being the minority. Remember, by far the majority of the thousands upon thousands of players do not read or post on forums at all.

It isn't hard to find out that forumers who like the lab are a minority, a handful of people.
It's true that the great majority of players don't visit forums at all, but it got nothing to do with their...hmm...lab orientation - it's unknown and will stay this way as long as they don't register and share their opinion.

"

It's safe to assume more often than not, most people who do read forums, do so because they are having an issue and look for solutions. Not all about lab of course, but that's generally the case.

No, you can't assume such thing. There are three types of people on the forums: annoyed angry players with hate threads (a tiny part); players who use forums as a source of information - news, game play, mechanics, etc. (mostly in the gameplay help/discussion and manifeso sections - pretty solid in numbers); people who use forums for social interaction of a kind (the vast majority).

Basically, according to how statistical researches work, opinions of the players on forums represent the global trend. Mind it.

"

torturo wrote:

Even before lab was implemented, it was obvious from the teasers that the conceptual existence of this platformer/arcade content in PoE is highly debatable. The reality proved it.
The problem lays mostly within the labyrinth concept, its nature. The actual implementation aside - though it appeared to be poorly executed as well, but it's not that important.

Lab is a concept which belongs to games much much different than aRPGs. Too distinct from the typical PoE audience. If it was more of a rogue dungeon, rather than a platformer, I'm sure it would be treated in a different way.

Definitely there are players who like lab (nothing wrong), but it appeared they are the actual minority, to the contrary of what Mr. Wilson stated. Forget about polls, just take a look at the "lab changes" thread in the development manifesto - that's the actual poll.

What I really don't understand is why there weren't any deep, significant reworks, while it's obvious there's a problem. Arrogance? Pride? Ignorance? Would be good to know.

I share your view that the majority of players probably dislike or hate lab.

Those who like lab are probably the true minority, with a particularly small handful of vocal supporters in the feedback forum. And, at least some of the "lab faithful" earn in-game currency through carries; their aim seems to be to keep lab as an unpleasant chore for as many players as GGG is willing to tolerate. Their support for lab should really be taken as a sign of just how little players like lab, and not the opposite.

As for why those who dislike lab were dismissed as a "vocal minority" in an interview, that is probably best explained as follows:



Edit & PS: I posted in the Development Manifesto thread on lab changes, but didn't read through it. That's quite a long thread compared to most, even by "Dev Manifesto" standards. But, your post got me to spend some time browsing posts. Wow, there is a lot of dislike and hate for lab on display.

I'm not surprised at all that many, many players dislike or hate lab. I'm a bit surprised that so many players took the time to express their thoughts and also by how many players who are expressing that dislike / hatred have been long time supporters of the game.

Big "head buried in the sand" effort by GGG concerning lab.

"

torturo wrote:

Basically, according to how statistical researches work, opinions of the players on forums represent the global trend. Mind it.

Dunno about that, might be I mentioned it before but it would be very similar to a car manufacturer looking for opinions on their new model on a car forum. We could probably agree that a place like that dominantly hosts people with... advanced interest in the subject at least, if not enthusiasts.
It wouldn't be smart to rely on that kind of opinion if the majority of your customers has no idea what an oil filter is. Different views, different priorities, it just wouldn't be representative of an average consumer.

"

Xavathos wrote:

"

Turtledove wrote:

I'm having fun playing D3. True I would like PoE to be made fun again but I'm not desperate. It really upsets you that some people don't adore the horrible piece of crap called the labyrinth. You're the desperate fellow that thinks GGG is so brain-dead stupid that they need the Fruz to come here and save them from feedback and suggestions in the Feedback and Suggestions forum.

He's not defending GGG at all. He doesn't speak in the name of anyone other than himself.

He's defending (a part of) the game he adores from those who would see it casualized for their own selfish reasons.

And before you say it, we're not being selfish when we just want the creators to do their thing, their own way.

We are not making demands, we are not making threats. We just want Path of Exile to be Path of Exile, the gem of a game that it has been since alpha and hopefully will be for years to come. There's no reason for you to insult or shun any of us for what we are doing.

You have been allowed to give your feedback and make your suggestions, because you disagreed with the direction of a piece of content. Let us do the same now, would you?

Cheers, mate.

How more casual can it be than pay 2-4C and avoid it. The fact is even if you can avoid it by cheating it's still bad ARPG content and should be optional, if in the game at all.