SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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Xavathos wrote:

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Nishrek wrote:

Maybe all those threads? Maybe the fact that GGG themselves almost admit it in one of manifestos?

Really? I haven't seen it.

Look again.

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Xavathos wrote:

And threads are an indication that some people don't like it, which is natural in a community as large as this one. It cannot be taken as any kind of indication at all on the large scale.

Follownig that logic all feedback is meangless because in whole community always will be someboedy who likes/dislikes X and somebody who does opposite.

BTW Why no other content is despised so much?
Atziri? Shaper? Grandmasters? All of them have gagted content, but there are no threads about them from people who can't farm them.

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Xavathos wrote:

For one, I don't farm the Lab, at least not for currency. When I farm it, it's for a specific enchant to use myself.

So the lab is profitable enough for you to run it regardless of AP. And that's fine.

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Xavathos wrote:

The whole idea behind the Lab is that it's a trial of Ascendancy.

I will not repeat myself about gameplay/lore priorities...
Also GGG already has retconned Zana's past, which is quite a major lore change...

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Xavathos wrote:

The entire expansion was based on it and named after it.

I know it may be difficult for them to admit that major part of expansion is not fun for many players.

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Xavathos wrote:

Mechanically, you're not supposed to get this much power with some kind of effort involved. Lab is put in place as a wall to climb to get said power.

Izaro fight can be qute difficult for many builds. Also, you are not getting other rewards. No XP, loot, enchants. This is a balancing factor.
Also in 3.0 lab will be harder because of resistance penalty.

About my lore adjustments. It took me about 2 minutes to think those ideas. They were supposed to be only examples. It is obvious that other people may find out better concepts.

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raics wrote:

Anyway, if they give us a way to skip most of the lab, the whole thing might not even be there in the first place, it would serve no point.

lab has a point in the endgame. As an ultimate farming area.

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Turtledove wrote:

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Xavathos wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

Nishrek was just giving some examples as ways that it could be easily changed or molded. It was not a list of choices for GGG to chose from! It was silly to try to treat it as such.

Is that what I did? I thought I just gave him my opinion on each of his suggestions. Where did I say that any of this is definitive? More importantly, where did he say that?

Sorry if I was unclear. I just thought that the line of thought for that lore argument you fellows were having was getting tangled up in the detail.

I think that Nishrek's point is that lore is easily expanded on, changed, or enhanced. Saying that Labyrinth can't be "fixed" because of lore is a very weak argument from a practical point of view.

Fair enough. Lore alone is indeed no excuse to not fix something that is broken. You're right on that.

The argument, however, remains whether or not the Lab is even broken to begin with.
I argue that it's not, therefor, to me, I'd rather not see the lore changed in order to fix something that isn't broken. (in my eyes)

I hope you see where I'm coming from now.

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Nishrek wrote:

Follownig that logic all feedback is meangless because in whole community always will be someboedy who likes/dislikes X and somebody who does opposite.

BTW Why no other content is despised so much?
Atziri? Shaper? Grandmasters? All of them have gagted content, but there are no threads about them from people who can't farm them.

I never said feedback isn't useful. I'm just saying it's not because a few people make a thread about something, that something MUST BE DONE IMMEDIATELY. Or indeed, at all. That remains to be seen, by research and statistics. Statistics only GGG has access to. Again, trust them, they know best. You did your job by posting your feedback, that's all you can do. Whether it ends up being a part of a major change is not up to you, or us.

Again, you can't say that something isn't disliked as much as the Lab on the sole basis of a number of threads on forums. You don't know how many people dislike something that do not even visit forums, or even speak english. Guarantee me that, and I'll tell you you're right. Until then, you're speculating.

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Nishrek wrote:

I will not repeat myself about gameplay/lore priorities...

Good, because they're not your priorities to set in the first place.

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Nishrek wrote:

I know it may be difficult for them to admit that major part of expansion is not fun for many players.

If it indeed ends up being "many players" which remains to be seen. Again, these are statistics you do not have access to. The logical thing to do would be to trust those that do.

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Nishrek wrote:

Izaro fight can be qute difficult for many builds.

That's no excuse to change something, based on bad builds. If your build can't do Izaro (assuming you mean Uber Izaro) you won't be able to do Guardians and Shaper either. In essence, your build fails to complete the game. That's fine, but that's a choice you make when you start playing that build, not the game's fault.

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Nishrek wrote:

lab has a point in the endgame. As an ultimate farming area.

No, it's not. The loot is bad because it's capped at Uber Lab levels. T15/16 maps provide much better loot and the experience in the Lab is abysmal. The only thing you farm Lab for is enchants. Raics is right in that if AP were to be removed from the Lab, it would not played as much anymore.

Now I hear you Lab haters cheering "AHA! You just admitted that most people don't like it then, if nobody plays it without it being mandatory!"

Well, yes and no. It could be true in theory, but then again, players tend to choose the path of least resistance and maximum efficiency. The Lab was not designed to be efficient, it was designed to be challenging, a power gate. Obviously nobody in their right mind would farm the Lab when there are maps that do everything it does, but much better in loot, exp, layout and perhaps boss aspects. What I'm trying to say is that it doesn't necessarily have to do with Lab being fun or not fun to people, it can mean a great many things.

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Xavathos wrote:

Another nail on the head. You should consider a career in carpentry, bud.

And there is so much to be done here!

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Nishrek wrote:

BTW you guys are funny. You both have great talent to deflecting inconvenient questions and jumping to conclusions. I have to learn it.

You don't need to learn anything, you're pretty far ahead in this discipline it seems.

Now you do seem have some understanding issues regarding causality, or was it just convenient for you maybe ?

And for your information, let's just pick what Wikipedia says about Prince of Persia :

"The franchise is built around a series of action-adventure games"
You can look for the word "arcade" in the article, it isn't there.
Funny, isn't it ?

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raics wrote:

It is allowed to shape gameplay in the amount which is ultimately decided on by the creators, not genre conventions.

How ridiculous is it that those people still don't get it ? ( not every one of the lab hater obviously, but ... )
It's kind of mind blowing to be honest.

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Nishrek wrote:

* Previous shortcut idea (Chitus did cheat also in some similar way IRRC)
* Zana finds the way to skip this (FFS she has a device which can distort reality and cross whole dimensions!), or at least turn off the traps
* After 1st fight, Izaro understands that an exile is too powerful for him, he is scared, and he offers a deal: he will show way to the chamber, but he will be left alive

1. Already explained before how this idea is terrible and how you are not actually understanding the lore ...
2. So you're not aware of how the map device works, I see .... Stop trying to ruin the lore that you do not know, thx.
3. Izaro is already dead

...

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Nishrek wrote:

I will not repeat myself about gameplay/lore priorities...

You do not need to keep throwing the same irrelevant things here, indeed.

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Xavathos wrote:

Now I hear you Lab haters cheering "AHA! You just admitted that most people don't like it then, if nobody plays it without it being mandatory!"

Mind you, I like the lab and still go in pretty much only for ascending. I like it as a hurdle, levelling a character can be dull at times and lab is a good milestone and a change of pace. If you do it at level with a build that isn't very good for levelling it can even be fun and give you a feeling of accomplishment when done.

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raics wrote:

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Xavathos wrote:

Now I hear you Lab haters cheering "AHA! You just admitted that most people don't like it then, if nobody plays it without it being mandatory!"

Mind you, I like the lab and still go in pretty much only for ascending. I like it as a hurdle, levelling a character can be dull at times and lab is a good milestone and a change of pace. If you do it at level with a build that isn't very good for levelling it can even be fun and give you a feeling of accomplishment when done.

Oh, I agree. I would play the Lab too if it wouldn't be mandatory for AP anymore. I still do now for enchants and even without those I'd still run it. All I'm saying is that I'm fairly certain that the number of Lab runs in a league would drop dramatically as a result. I'm just making sure it's known that if that would happen, it still doesn't necessarily mean it's disliked, just not efficient. It currently has a good reason not to be efficient.

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Xavathos wrote:

Again, you can't say that something isn't disliked as much as the Lab on the sole basis of a number of threads on forums.

Of course, I can. That's the way statistics works. We have a sample and can analyze it.
BTW If there is number X of threads about one content and zero about the other it is obvious that former has some problems.

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Xavathos wrote:

Good, because they're not your priorities to set in the first place.

Nor yours.

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Fruz wrote:

"The franchise is built around a series of action-adventure games"
You can look for the word "arcade" in the article, it isn't there.
Funny, isn't it ?

Yep. Funny when you like to focus on words, without context. I posted earlier another action game.
Cute deflecting.
Again, I asked if action game from YT would be appropriate to PoE (with proper visual assets, and lore of course).
Again, it is nice that I am "egoist" because I pointed why lore is not the most important element, but you are not with your "just do lab" attitude.
Cute.

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Xavathos wrote:

If your build can't do Izaro (assuming you mean Uber Izaro) you won't be able to do Guardians and Shaper either. In essence, your build fails to complete the game.

Not all builds can kill shaper indeed. Do you see people complaining about it on the forum?

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The_Reporter wrote:

99% wouldn't go in there if it weren't for ascendancy points. Even with the over the top loot & enchant possibility at the end. Because the design and execution is garbage level.

Ah, there's our senior statistics analyst.
I missed you and your numbers, bro. Never had I thought it was this easy to be part of the 1%! What have I been doing all my life?

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Nishrek wrote:

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Xavathos wrote:

Good, because they're not your priorities to set in the first place.

Nor yours.

Now wait a sec, that isn't the same because we aren't telling those that do assign those priorities what to do or claiming that adjusting the lore is easy or hard. What we do know from prior experience is they don't have a habit of changing significant lore elements unless a major expansion requires it. Who knows, maybe it's easy and they don't want to do it and might be that they don't mind it but it's a pain in the butt.

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The_Reporter wrote:

99% wouldn't go in there if it weren't for ascendancy points. Even with the over the top loot & enchant possibility at the end. Because the design and execution is garbage level.

You shouldn't casually toss around hard numbers, especially not big ones, those are too easy to debunk. I personally like it as a way to gain ascendancy, not as a farming ground but I'd say it does get a fair deal of casual farming done. You can see it on streams, I get 'dnd, farming' lab often enough when trading and got some buddies that do it regularly, seems plausible even if I didn't trust the numbers from GGG.

The problem with the lab is it's a specialized farming area, similar to Atziri, you don't need a special setup to complete it but you need one to farm it fast and reliable, it's no dried lake or shaped strand.