SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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Xavathos wrote:

"Work" can mean a job. "I need to get to work."
Or it could indicate something isn't broken. "These maps work perfectly."
Or it could mean something you do to fix it. "Both of you should work it out together."

Have a cookie. Now check the word "Arcade"

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Xavathos wrote:

Another nail on the head. You should consider a career in carpentry, bud.

Yep, because he devotes the same amount of reading comprehension as when hitting nails...

BTW you guys are funny. You both have great talent to deflecting inconvenient questions and jumping to conclusions. I have to learn it.

Here are some objective facts
* I do not consider lore most important thing =/= I do not care for lore at all
* In no aRPG lore/realism overruled gameplay (why monster do not use portals when we are returning to town?)
* Lab is the only content so hated, even by people who can farm it
* GGG admitted that "Prince Of Persia" was one of the inspirations when creating lab (but lab is not arcade content, sure)
* There is possible to change lab without damaging lore
* GGG already retconned some lore in the past
* Many people suggest keeping lab as a profitable farm area, after separating AP from it (so people who like it may still run it)

Now some of your funny conclusions (hint: none of them is true)
* Because I do not consider lore most important element I am an egoist
* Because I do not like the lab, I am a spoiled brat
* You who say "I like lab, so suck it and play it!" are fine and dandy
* People who suggest alternatives to the lab, are stating demands, not giving feedback
* Because something requires active gameplay it is always good in aRPG game

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Xavathos wrote:

Because creating something is done from the heart, it's not something you can force.

Sometimes a company has to swallow the pride and admit they've made an error. That's the way it is. Good developers should've been able to do that. Yes, this requires some balls, especially with such big problem.
But being stubborn, and ignoring the feedback is the sign of vanity, not vision and passion.

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Nishrek wrote:

Have a cookie. Now check the word "Arcade"

Sweet, thanks! I love cookies. :D

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Nishrek wrote:

Sometimes a company has to swallow the pride and admit they've made an error. That's the way it is. Good developers should've been able to do that. Yes, this requires some balls, especially with such big problem.
But being stubborn, and ignoring the feedback is the sign of vanity, not vision and passion.

I couldn't agree more! That's absolutely true.
Now... please point me to a valid source that states the Lab is an error?

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Nishrek wrote:

Here are some objective facts
* I do not consider lore most important thing =/= I do not care for lore at all
* In no aRPG lore/realism overruled gameplay (why monster do not use portals when we are returning to town?)
* Lab is the only content so hated, even by people who can farm it
* GGG admitted that "Prince Of Persia" was one of the inspirations when creating lab (but lab is not arcade content, sure)
* There is possible to change lab without damaging lore
* GGG already retconned some lore in the past
* Many people suggest keeping lab as a profitable farm area, after separating AP from it (so people who like it may still run it)

Mind you, lore is never technically above gameplay regardless of genre, you're making a game, not a visual novel. It is allowed to shape gameplay in the amount which is ultimately decided on by the creators, not genre conventions. The problem here aren't lore nuances, though, it's just that you can't ascend without an ascension trial which is a core concept. They would have to rethink what ascension is in the first place and replace it with something equally robust which fits the provided power boost.

Again, that costs money so there's no chance they will do it as long as the lab does the job in a satisfactory manner. And we might be misunderstanding the whole approach to it, lab is first and foremost a power gate, which means you do it because of the reward and not because you want to. The thing probably doesn't even have to be liked, it isn't a target content like maps are, maybe it wouldn't even be a good gate if it isn't hated at least a little.

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Xavathos wrote:

Now... please point me to a valid source that states the Lab is an error?

Maybe all those threads? Maybe the fact that GGG themselves almost admit it in one of manifestos?

BTW Please tell me why the idea of removing AP from lab is so bad for you? "Skilled players" (lets for sake of the argument believe that doing lab shows "skill") will still earn huge amount of currency anyway from farming it.

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Fruz wrote:

I would teach you how to use proper English and build sentences that actually make sense, but

Better invest this time in learning reading comprehension. It will benefit you more.

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raics wrote:

The problem here aren't lore nuances, though, it's just that you can't ascend without an ascension trial which is a core concept. They would have to rethink what ascension is in the first place and replace it with something equally robust which fits the provided power boost.

Fair enough. But with tweaking some facts it does not requires so big or expensive changes. Here are few quick ideas (of course they are quick and unrefined)
* Previous shortcut idea (Chitus did cheat also in some similar way IRRC)
* Zana finds the way to skip this (FFS she has a device which can distort reality and cross whole dimensions!), or at least turn off the traps
* After 1st fight, Izaro understands that an exile is too powerful for him, he is scared, and he offers a deal: he will show way to the chamber, but he will be left alive

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Nishrek wrote:

Maybe all those threads? Maybe the fact that GGG themselves almost admit it in one of manifestos?

Really? I haven't seen it. And threads are an indication that some people don't like it, which is natural in a community as large as this one. It cannot be taken as any kind of indication at all on the large scale.

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Nishrek wrote:

BTW Please tell me why the idea of removing AP from lab is so bad for you? "Skilled players" (lets for sake of the argument believe that doing lab shows "skill") will still earn huge amount of currency anyway from farming it.

For one, I don't farm the Lab, at least not for currency. When I farm it, it's for a specific enchant to use myself. If I sell enchants, it's because RNGsus decided to give me the wrong valuable skill enchant, which is still nice.

Two, removing the AP from the Lab is about lore and mechanics. The whole idea behind the Lab is that it's a trial of Ascendancy. The entire expansion was based on it and named after it. It's obviously a big deal and the concept behind it should remain the same. Mechanically, you're not supposed to get this much power with some kind of effort involved. Lab is put in place as a wall to climb to get said power.

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Nishrek wrote:

Fair enough. But with tweaking some facts it does not requires so big or expensive changes. Here are few quick ideas (of course they are quick and unrefined)
1) Previous shortcut idea (Chitus did cheat also in some similar way IRRC)
2) Zana finds the way to skip this (FFS she has a device which can distort reality and cross whole dimensions!), or at least turn off the traps
3) After 1st fight, Izaro understands that an exile is too powerful for him, he is scared, and he offers a deal: he will show way to the chamber, but he will be left alive

1) I guess... but his shortcuts aren't exactly from Sarn to Izaro's freaking treasure room.
2) Following that logic, Zana could do a whole lot of things, including warping time in order to stop entire historical events from even being conceived. Like the development of the game.... Path of X-Files.
3) I believe you have a great deal to learn about the personality that is Izaro if you think he'd be scared of an exile. He challenges and taunts you every step of the way and eventually congratulates (almost thanks) you for your victory. Does that sound like someone who's scared to you?

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Xavathos wrote:

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Nishrek wrote:

Fair enough. But with tweaking some facts it does not requires so big or expensive changes. Here are few quick ideas (of course they are quick and unrefined)
1) Previous shortcut idea (Chitus did cheat also in some similar way IRRC)
2) Zana finds the way to skip this (FFS she has a device which can distort reality and cross whole dimensions!), or at least turn off the traps
3) After 1st fight, Izaro understands that an exile is too powerful for him, he is scared, and he offers a deal: he will show way to the chamber, but he will be left alive

1) I guess... but his shortcuts aren't exactly from Sarn to Izaro's freaking treasure room.
2) Following that logic, Zana could do a whole lot of things, including warping time in order to stop entire historical events from even being conceived. Like the development of the game.... Path of X-Files.
3) I believe you have a great deal to learn about the personality that is Izaro if you think he'd be scared of an exile. He challenges and taunts you every step of the way and eventually congratulates (almost thanks) you for your victory. Does that sound like someone who's scared to you?

From my point of view one of the poorest arguments against fixing labyrinth is the lore argument. Lore can easily be changed and molded. Nishrek was just giving some examples as ways that it could be easily changed or molded. It was not a list of choices for GGG to chose from! It was silly to try to treat it as such.

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Turtledove wrote:

Nishrek was just giving some examples as ways that it could be easily changed or molded. It was not a list of choices for GGG to chose from! It was silly to try to treat it as such.

Is that what I did? I thought I just gave him my opinion on each of his suggestions. Where did I say that any of this is definitive? More importantly, where did he say that?

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Nishrek wrote:

Fair enough. But with tweaking some facts it does not requires so big or expensive changes. Here are few quick ideas (of course they are quick and unrefined)
* Previous shortcut idea (Chitus did cheat also in some similar way IRRC)
* Zana finds the way to skip this (FFS she has a device which can distort reality and cross whole dimensions!), or at least turn off the traps
* After 1st fight, Izaro understands that an exile is too powerful for him, he is scared, and he offers a deal: he will show way to the chamber, but he will be left alive

Yup, Chitus did cheat (aptly named NPC), and, funnily enough, in the same way as we do. He had a map which we also have in the form of poelab, he knew about secret passages which we also do and had devices planted that can help in boss fights, which we can obtain too. Now that I think of it, Izzy wasn't in the lab at that point, which means goddess alone was probably the boss so it might have been a bit easier.

Anyway, if they give us a way to skip most of the lab, the whole thing might not even be there in the first place, it would serve no point. Really, no idea what's so unreasonable about their condition, 'pass through the lab one way or the other to get ascension points', it's no worse than 'level a master to 8 to meta craft or pay someone a master fee'. The way I see it, it's their game - their rules, and seeing that it has a healthy playerbase they aren't being too hardcore with them.

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Xavathos wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

Nishrek was just giving some examples as ways that it could be easily changed or molded. It was not a list of choices for GGG to chose from! It was silly to try to treat it as such.

Is that what I did? I thought I just gave him my opinion on each of his suggestions. Where did I say that any of this is definitive? More importantly, where did he say that?

Sorry if I was unclear. I just thought that the line of thought for that lore argument you fellows were having was getting tangled up in the detail.

I think that Nishrek's point is that lore is easily expanded on, changed, or enhanced. Saying that Labyrinth can't be "fixed" because of lore is a very weak argument from a practical point of view.

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Turtledove wrote:

I think that Nishrek's point is that lore is easily expanded on, changed, or enhanced. Saying that Labyrinth can't be "fixed" because of lore is a very weak argument from a practical point of view.

Depends on how high devs of that specific game put established lore on their list and what exactly it is. Something like unique items can easily be changed, for example Deshret's Vise was most likely designed before they fleshed out Deshret as a character after which it didn't really align so they gave it to Meginord instead where it makes a much better fit.

However, labyrinth has a fairly well established story at the moment, based on their prior work they wouldn't be likely to tamper with anything on that scale that unless it clashed with a major expansion like the upcoming FoO. Just text is one thing, but resources or voice acting is a lot of work.